Cloak of Protection From (Alignment)

[Nyeshet]

Only 1 level?

I was stating that sort of tongue-in-cheek. Personally, I think it should be a third level spell (ie: +2 levels), but that is just me.

No. All of the reductions are HIGHLY campaign dependent and the DM specifically said that the opponents are evil (implying most if not all)--so no reduction.

Okay, I can accept that. However, would this mean that a similar item against, say, Chaos or Law would receive a reduction? I can also see Evil NPC foes wearing ones that protect against Good. Would that receive a reduction, since - if the PCs took them as treasure afterwards - they would receive far less use from them?

Note that all effects must have the same caster level.

I had forgotten that bit. Thanks for the reminder.

Lesser Mindblank vs Evil creatures equivalent: 3 * 5 * 2000
Deflection AC: 2000 x 4 (bonus 2^2) * 1.5
Resistance Bonus: 1000 x 4 (bonus 2^2) x 1.5 for an additional benefit
Lesser Sanctuary vs Summoned Evil creatures equivalent: 0.5 * 5 * 2000 * 1.5

30K+12K+6K+7.5K=55,500gp

Hmm, that sounds about right. It is only a few k gp from my second suggestion of 50k gp. Considering that a continuous third level spell effect on an item results in about 30k, this is a bit expensive, actually - almost exactly the cost of a 4th level spell continuous item (56k gp, 4 * 7 * 2k). So perhaps my view of Protection from Evil being best suited as a 3rd level spell is off, and the spell should instead be a 4th level spell. Somehow that just seems too high a level for the spell. But I can see the reasoning for the item itself having such a price (of a 4th level continuous spell effect).

I still think it's a little low. Oh yeah, you forgot the x2 charge because PfE is min/level. Make it 111,000gp. That's about right.

x2 because it is minutes per level? Where is that stated? As far as I can tell, spell duration has little effect upon how long an item lasts. Wait a minute, charaged? This is not a charged item, so I don't think that should have any effect. As it is, at 55k gp the item is impossible to buy before 11th level (going by suggested PC wealth per level in PHB2, page 215) - and that's presuming no other magical equipment at all! I somehow doubt anyone would buy the item at that level. It's not really affordable to buy until level 14 or 15 - when it takes up a third or a quarter of the wealth of the character, respectively.

So, at 55k gp, we're talking about a high level item, the type that won't be commonly had until near pre-epic levels. Somehow I doubt that is 'too little' for this item. Doubling the cost makes it not cost effective to have the item prior to level 16 or 17. I note that at 15th level a caster may use Mindblank for 24 near immunity to enchantments and Divinations from creatures of all alignments.

At level 16 a Sorcerer with a good Cha could cast Mindblank on all the members of the party and themself and perhaps still have a spell or two to cast from that level. So could a Wizard or Cleric, for that matter. Granted, a caster would most likely not be willing to do so in many instances, as their number of higher level spells for the day would be severely curtailed, but this does suggest that the usefulness of a Protection from Evil item at such a level is very little if a friendly caster is in the party and willing to cast it upon you.

I cannot imagine a PC ever spending more than a third of their total wealth on such an item, although I admit that perhaps such may be typical in your games. As such, 17th level is the earliest the item will be bought it if costs 110k gp. I note that a 17th level PC with Leadership can have a 15th level cohort - who almost certainly would not mind casting Mindblank on them. Thus a simple feat replaces the need for item with something far superior to it at the level when the PC could typically afford to buy the item, considering that much of their wealth will likely be in the form of armor, weaponry, and various ability enhancement items (present and past).

So again I state that 50k or 55k gp is a much more realistic price than 110 gp, as no one is likely to ever buy the item at that price, as better means will exist for equal or (far) less cost by that level [17].




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As a question, how many think that Protection from Evil should be a higher level?

How many think it should be 2nd level?

How many think it should be 3rd level?

How many think it should be 4th level?

How many think it is just right for its current level (1st)?

I don't know how to do Polls on this board (not even sure if I can do polls on this board), but if anyone knows how to do them and can do them, I think it would be interesting to see the result of such a poll. I wonder if the result of the poll would be different if the text specifically mentioned the creation of an item of continuous Protection from Evil? Somehow I think it would, but I wonder if even without that text many would increase the level of the spell?

 

[Glyfair]

You don't. Some things just shouldn't/can't be made into magical items. This was pointed out in the true strike thread. In this case, as with true strike, it creates a direct conflict in the rules on pricing and therefore IMO shouldn't be allowed--because pricing it is too difficult, too expensive, not worth it, or all of the above.

I agree. Just because you can come up with a price for it doesn't mean it can be made into a magic item.

Personally, I would allow a Cloak of Protection from Evil. However, it would be limited to a once per day activation, or perhaps be a charged item.

 

[SidusLupus]

Out of curiousity how much would a continuous use item of mindblank cost?

75kish (halfway between 50 and 100k) sounds maybe in the ballpark of where'd price such a cloak, but that's just me. I don't think I'd be cool with allowing it in my game though. As for cloaks of the other alignments.. to be fair they'd be priced the same. Usually they wouldn't be as useful as a protection from evil cloak.. but depending on the campaign direction they could be just as good if not better.

The funny thing is, if it was a charged item or per day I wouldn't really have a problem with it. That whole continious part is really what makes it super good.

As for upping the spell level.. if I were to do that, I'd probably bump it by one level.

 

[Jack Simth]

Out of curiousity how much would a continuous use item of mindblank cost?

120,000 gp, from the Psionics section of the SRD:

Conceal: While worn, a third eye conceal protects the wearer from view by all devices, powers, and spells that detect, inf luence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against all mind-affecting powers and effects as well as information-gathering by clairsentience powers or effects (except for metafaculty); this item affects the wearer as if he enjoyed the benefit of the psionic mind blank power.
Strong telepathy; ML 15th; Craft Universal Item, psionic mind blank; Price 120,000 gp.

 

[Nyeshet]

Out of curiousity how much would a continuous use item of mindblank cost?

240,000 gp (8 (spell lvl) * 15 (min caster lvl) * 2000 gp)

Psionic items must use a different guideline for pricing items. Oddly enough, when one looks into the Psionic section of the SRD it links to the table used for magic item creation price suggestion - including the above formula. And it turns out that Psionic Mindblank is an 8th level power not accessible until 15th level - suggesting that the price listed in the SRD is half what it should be. Or perhaps its use as a Third Eye halves the price, as many third eyes have quite useful and potent powers / abilities associated with them, and having this item as such fills the Third Eye slot - and perhaps also the headband &/or eyepiece / google slot(s). Hmm, if it took up two item slots (eyes and head) then I can easily see halving the cost).

The funny thing is, if it was a charged item or per day I wouldn't really have a problem with it. That whole continious part is really what makes it super good.

The funny thing is, a wand of Protection from Evil (50 charges) only costs 750 gp to buy - or 375 gp and 15 xp to make. 50 charges. Granted, at that level (1) it would only last one minute (10 rounds) per charge. And for a continuous item you would charge about 100x (75k gp) that cost? Of course, 50k gp would be about 65-70x that cost, so I suppose it's not too out-there. Still seems overpriced to me, as it could not be reasonably bought or used until 17th level, by which point a feat (leadership) with a full casting cohort would readily replace it - and much more besides.

As for upping the spell level.. if I were to do that, I'd probably bump it by one level.

To level 2? That is okay, I guess. I just think that a spell's level should be based upon what one would expect a continuous use item of that to cost - which suggests 4th level for Protection from Evil. But because of its restriction to only one alignment, dropping it a level (to a third level spell) makes sense to me. And, I admit, third level simply feels right to me for this spell.

I wonder how many other spells should (or perhaps simply could) be adjusted for better balance? In my games I raise by +2 the levels of spells that affect ability scores or raise the dead. This makes ability score adjusting spells and magic items less common, making the initial and the level based increases more important, less trivial.

Slightly off topic, I tend to think that True Strike should have a bonus to attack based on caster level rather than a set number (+20). Its purpose is to aid a caster who typically only has poor BAB actually have a good chance of striking something, so perhaps granting +caster level (or +half caster level) to the caster of the spell would make it more balanced (+1 at first or second level, +10 at 10th or 20th level). That would change its cost completely, as any increase in caster level would similarly increase its cost. Thus a first level usage would at best grant +1 to attack. That, I think, would make it more balanced. Comments?

 

[Astalanya]

Thank you for all the replies (and with calculations! You guys really are great!). I have to say that I'm in the same channel of thinking as many posters on the forum -- the spell benefits of a continuous protection from evil spell (or protection from any alignment spell) are really significant. I have no issue with someone making a wand as a first or third level caster, because those charges are pretty limited in number. But seriously, for a little over triple the price, a character getting a continuous spell...

And protection from evil is one of those bothersome ones that, like true strike, is just as good as a 1st level caster level as it is at 15th, the only thing changing being the duration. Blech!

The versatility and use of this item, even without the mind blank-like effect, puts it with a value of at least 10,000 gp. It's more popular than other comparable protection items, like bracers of armor +2 and amulet of natural armor +2. The latter's about 8,000 gp and doesn't include the 4,000 gp for resistance bonuses to saves.

I don't want to outright say no because this is an item that does make good theme sense; several good-aligned characters go out to fight scourges of the countryside, and want the blessings of their deity. But I agree, it needs a significant price increase. The line of thought of 'how useful is this?' and 'how much value does it bring in the campaign?' is right where I was debating with myself. 100,000 gp is far too excessive. But at 50,000 gp... is it worth the same as a cloak of displacement? For the lesser mind blank effect, absolutely! Especially with things like vampires and other corrupting evil foes (because necromancy and enchantment are wickedly complementary), it's suddenly a lot of abilities.

I'm leaning around 40,000 gp myself, or otherwise scaling the price closer to 16,000 and knocking out the protection from enchantment (charm) and (compulsion), possession, etc. altogether. Any thoughts?

My group isn't very high in levels yet, they're hovering around 5-7.

 

[Astalanya]

I would agree that the overall 'feel' of PfE for a magic item's spell level should be around 3.

 

[KarinsDad]

You don't. Some things just shouldn't/can't be made into magical items.

I agree with Infiniti.

I had 4 Rings of Protection From Good (as opposed to Evil) on some undead. The PCs won the battle and acquired the rings.

I didn't think that much of it because they almost never fought good opponents, hence, they did not get the AC or save bonus.

However, as it turned out, the mind protection ability and summoned creature protection ability were still HUGE in the game, especially with 4 PCs being so protected.


Fortunately, I found a way to get rid of the rings. Since they were Protection From Good rings, that gave them the Evil descriptor. Once I ponted this out, the PCs (in character) were only too eager to get rid of them. The players were not particularly thrilled, but they roleplayed their PCs correctly.


Take it from someone who knows. I only had two of the four protections and I regretted it. You will most likely regret it as well if you give them all four, even at a higher price.

It is protection from certain types of Mind Affecting spells. It is protection from Summoning spells. And, it is a bonus to AC and Saves. Btw, these last two alone are worth (8000 GP + (4000 GP * 1.5)) * .90 = 12,600 GP.

Do yourself a favor and consider it the same as a permanent item of True Strike. Something designed to never see the light of day.

 

[MarkB]

If you don't want to just ban the item, I suggest compromising by having the cloaks provide the physical benefits of the spell constantly, but the mental protections only a few times per day - I'd say 3/day, for one minute's duration each time.

 

[Nyeshet]

However, as it turned out, the mind protection ability and summoned creature protection ability were still HUGE in the game, especially with 4 PCs being so protected.

I thought those effects only pertained to evil creatures (or good, in your example). Thus they would be protected from mental probes, charms etc of Good aligned creatures, but not from non-Good creatures. Similar with Summoned creatures. Summoned Good creatures would not be able to approach them, but non-Good summoned creatures could as normal. Am I incorrect in this?