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close quarters fighting question
- Thread starter Willtell
- Start date
Belphanior
First Post
You can never make an AoO against a creature you don't threaten, regardless of whether or not his actions might provoke one.
You do not threaten anything whose space (or "face", if you prefer) lies outside your threatened area.
Short answer: no, you can't.
You do not threaten anything whose space (or "face", if you prefer) lies outside your threatened area.
Short answer: no, you can't.
Voadam
Legend
I'd rule the other way, when he reaches his arm/tentacle/mouth into your square to grapple you, I'd say you can strike the extremity in your square with with your AoO.
I'd also let you ready an action to strike an extremity or sunder or disarm a reach weapon that entered your threatened square.
It wouldn't make sense to me to say it never entered your square if it hit you.
I'd also let you ready an action to strike an extremity or sunder or disarm a reach weapon that entered your threatened square.
It wouldn't make sense to me to say it never entered your square if it hit you.
While technically your correct about not being able to AoO unless you threaten, it would kinda make the feat a bit useless. As what it is meant to help, as in the sword and fist description of the dire bear encounter, is big nasty things that'll tear you in two with their improved grab. Also these creatures tend to be large, violent and have reach. Those are the ones you need anything and everything you can get with extra modifiers to your grapple check.
I'm not worried about the 145lb elf trying to get me, the paleolithic dire bear is my concern and I'd go ahead and let him use the ability on said bear. IMO
Tellerve
I'm not worried about the 145lb elf trying to get me, the paleolithic dire bear is my concern and I'd go ahead and let him use the ability on said bear. IMO
Tellerve
Dash Dannigan
First Post
Improved Grapple allows for creatures to not have to enter their opponents space (in fact I believe the opponent they grapple is dragged into the creature's space).
Endur
First Post
The rules don't say you can't make an AOO.
And it makes sense. Just look at all the movies where the giant monster is reaching its arm down at the hero and the hero stabs the monster's hand, and it lets go of the hero.
Reach is a huge benefit. You don't have to make it even better by making the monster immune to AOO's too.
And it makes sense. Just look at all the movies where the giant monster is reaching its arm down at the hero and the hero stabs the monster's hand, and it lets go of the hero.
Reach is a huge benefit. You don't have to make it even better by making the monster immune to AOO's too.
Willtell said:
In both the 3.0 and the 3.5 SRD's, a grapple attack is listed as an action which DOES provoke an AoO. Since most creatures who grapple or have Snatch or Improved Grab are large or huge or bigger, and have reach, it would seem logical to say that creatures with reach who attempt to grapple do NOT provoke an AoO - if that were true.
Instead, the rules simply say that starting a grapple provokes an AoO. Period.
The reason it provokes an AoO is because you aren't just attacking someone. You are literally wrapping one part of yourself around them. Whether that is your mouth, your tentacle, your hand or whatever appendage you use, that means that some part of you is within reach. I'm sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to say that a dragon with 10' of reach can put his mouth around you but never be threatened by your weapon if you have Close Quarters Fighting. That's why it's called CLOSE Quarters Fighting.
And in the description of the Feat in Sword and Fist, it says, "Further, you are entitled to make an attack of opportunity even if the attacking creature has the improved grab ability."
Period. No qualifiers.
So yes, CQF gives you an AoO against creatures attempting to engage you in grappling ... even if that creature has reach.
Instead, the rules simply say that starting a grapple provokes an AoO. Period.
The reason it provokes an AoO is because you aren't just attacking someone. You are literally wrapping one part of yourself around them. Whether that is your mouth, your tentacle, your hand or whatever appendage you use, that means that some part of you is within reach. I'm sorry, it just doesn't make any sense to say that a dragon with 10' of reach can put his mouth around you but never be threatened by your weapon if you have Close Quarters Fighting. That's why it's called CLOSE Quarters Fighting.
And in the description of the Feat in Sword and Fist, it says, "Further, you are entitled to make an attack of opportunity even if the attacking creature has the improved grab ability."
Period. No qualifiers.
So yes, CQF gives you an AoO against creatures attempting to engage you in grappling ... even if that creature has reach.
the Jester
Legend
I, too, would rule that you can take your AoO against long-reachers... after all, their limb (or bite, or whatever) has to come over and say hi to grab you, right?
Also, CQF is otherwise practically useless- how often does something smaller than large actually grapple you anyway?
Also, CQF is otherwise practically useless- how often does something smaller than large actually grapple you anyway?
Voadam
Legend
the Jester said:
Also, CQF is otherwise practically useless- how often does something smaller than large actually grapple you anyway?
For my loremaster it has been 100% so far (Damn invisible werewolf henchmen). I've been able to stay out of the reach of the big critters, unlike our hapless frontline paladin.
