Cloud of Bewilderment (SC) - Too strong for a 2nd level spell?

[darthkilmor]

I'm running the Shackled City AP. The first combat it was used was against the Grell in Jzadirune. The Grell had grabbed one of the PC's and was trying to fly off to eat him at its leisure. However one failed Fortitude save later and the Grell was stuck in mid-air, unable to move (since the Grell was grappling he couldn't even move away unless he dropped the PC). The PC's were then able to take the Grell down in a couple of rounds before it could do anything.

Did the grell have the PC pinned ? He could have ?dropped him as a free action? and moved away.

 

[Nifft]

I had thought that you couldn't reduce a metamagic spell cost to below +1.

Even with all the errata that're out, it's not hard to get a metamagic spell cost of -1.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Did the grell have the PC pinned ? He could have ?dropped him as a free action? and moved away.

No he didn't have the PC pinned. He was just grappling the PC. He was nauseated before he had the chance to pin the PC.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

there's a problem with blindness and total defense. you get a dodge bonus to AC from total defense, which you lose, courtesy to being flat-footed, unless you happen to have uncanny dodge

Chu Li

You are correct. I also discovered that you can't withdraw from combat if you are blinded. So both blindness and nauseated PC's will give up AoO's if they try and move (unless the blinded PC makes an attack and then takes a 5ft step).

Olaf the Stout

 

[moritheil]

One big difference I see is that you can still attack (albeit with a 50% miss chance) while blinded. A nauseated PC can't deal any damage to his opponent, but a blinded one still can.

Also, a blinded PC can choose not to attack and use the Total Defense action to increase his AC until the Glitterdust spell expires.

I think that those 2 options make nausea more powerful than blindness.

Olaf the Stout

I think that this just means you don't value blindness as much as I do, which is fine - I imagine our play styles are different. I pretty much always have a sneak attacker in group, I favor touch/ranged touch spells, and I always take at least a 5' step every round of combat. All of these work well with blindness (since you lose dex and you have to guess which square to attack.)

Heck, even if you don't normally always move, you can start doing so once your opponents are blinded, if you're worried about them still hitting you . . .

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I think that this just means you don't value blindness as much as I do, which is fine - I imagine our play styles are different. I pretty much always have a sneak attacker in group, I favor touch/ranged touch spells, and I always take at least a 5' step every round of combat. All of these work well with blindness (since you lose dex and you have to guess which square to attack.)

Heck, even if you don't normally always move, you can start doing so once your opponents are blinded, if you're worried about them still hitting you . . .

I guess so. And there's nothing wrong with that.

The main reason I think nausea is more powerful is that it completely stops you from doing damage. Blindness still gives you a chance of taking down you opponent.

But, as we both agree, each to their own.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Zurai]

RAW, blindness pretty much negates you doing any damage, too, since there is no facing in D&D. There is no RAW way for you to know from which direction an attack came. One round after you've been blinded, all the variable information you had is completely useless. Also, blind is a FAR worse condition defensively than nausea. You can still defend yourself perfectly well while nauseated. You aren't vulnerable to sneak attacks, your AC remains the same, you are still able to see creatures to avoid them, you can still flank with your allies, etc. None of that is true with blindness. Also, nausea is never permanent and it's actually pretty easy to prevent. Many common monsters are immune to it, and there are even LA+0 races (warforged) that are totally immune to nausea. The only creatures that are completely unaffected by blindness are the rare creatures with blindsight. Blindsense is relatively common, but true blindsight is really pretty rare. There are quite a few categories of creatures immune to nausea, though (undead, constructs, elementals, dragons, plants, etc).

 

[Olaf the Stout]

RAW, blindness pretty much negates you doing any damage, too, since there is no facing in D&D. There is no RAW way for you to know from which direction an attack came. One round after you've been blinded, all the variable information you had is completely useless. Also, blind is a FAR worse condition defensively than nausea. You can still defend yourself perfectly well while nauseated. You aren't vulnerable to sneak attacks, your AC remains the same, you are still able to see creatures to avoid them, you can still flank with your allies, etc. None of that is true with blindness. Also, nausea is never permanent and it's actually pretty easy to prevent. Many common monsters are immune to it, and there are even LA+0 races (warforged) that are totally immune to nausea. The only creatures that are completely unaffected by blindness are the rare creatures with blindsight. Blindsense is relatively common, but true blindsight is really pretty rare. There are quite a few categories of creatures immune to nausea, though (undead, constructs, elementals, dragons, plants, etc).

I don't think you would still be able to flank while nauseated. You can't attack so I don't see how you would still threaten an opponent in order to provide a flank.

You are right about blindness opening you up to sneak attack and reducing your AC though.

The funny thing is that in the second combat (the one with the half-troll) the player in question cast sculpted versions of both Glitterdust and Cloud of Bewilderment. He really is able to pick the most effective spells.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Darklone]

Uncanny dodge sounds like a good idea if you are blind and want to go full defensive.

 

[amethal]

IThe funny thing is that in the second combat (the one with the half-troll) the player in question cast sculpted versions of both Glitterdust and Cloud of Bewilderment. He really is able to pick the most effective spells.

Olaf the Stout

Switch campaigns to Age of Worms.