Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Thasmodious]

Yes, effect damage kills minions. The only kind of damage that doesn't kill minions is 'miss' damage.

Can't get any clearer than that.

Not that it will make a difference to painguppy anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Attack" is specificially defined by the PHB to mean something that you make an attack roll for.

... or Wall of Fog.

For those curious to see a power that is listed as an attack, but which does not involve an attack roll, see for example:

Well, now, here's the question - is Consecrated Ground an attack? The word you highlighted tells us for certain that it is an attack power. Does it tell us it is an attack?

If you call Consecrated Ground an attack, you're actually supporting SadisticFishing's position, because it Consecrated Ground is 'an attack', then Cloud of Daggers (which also has the word you bolded) is also 'an attack', and if the attack roll for the attack 'Cloud of Daggers', then 'Cloud of Daggers' is a missed attack which can't damage a minion. Since the Effect damage derives from Cloud of Daggers, and Cloud of Daggers is a missed attack which can't damage a minion, the Effect damage can't damage the minion.

So be careful defining Consecrated Ground as 'an attack', because it doesn't argue what you hope it does.

-Hyp.

 

[silentounce]

I thought a picnic was an "event" the picnic basket can contain things you would use to have a successful picnic (like infinite oregano). be careful on the picnic though if you miss your attack roll it is inneffective against minions and the regular sized ants won't be affected by the aoe

Gazebos are vulnerable to Picnic damage. This is important because they are immune to virtually everything else.

 

[Mistwell]

... or Wall of Fog.



Well, now, here's the question - is Consecrated Ground an attack? The word you highlighted tells us for certain that it is an attack power. Does it tell us it is an attack?

If you call Consecrated Ground an attack, you're actually supporting SadisticFishing's position, because it Consecrated Ground is 'an attack', then Cloud of Daggers (which also has the word you bolded) is also 'an attack', and if the attack roll for the attack 'Cloud of Daggers', then 'Cloud of Daggers' is a missed attack which can't damage a minion. Since the Effect damage derives from Cloud of Daggers, and Cloud of Daggers is a missed attack which can't damage a minion, the Effect damage can't damage the minion.

So be careful defining Consecrated Ground as 'an attack', because it doesn't argue what you hope it does.

-Hyp.

I agree, you're being more precise than I was, and I should be careful given what we are dealing with in this debate.

It's an "attack power". That's all I meant by "power that is listed as an attack".

In my opinion, attack powers can be any of the following: 1) an attack, 2) a power that causes damage without being an attack, 3) have aspects of both an attack that causes damage and an attack power that does not involve an attack but which causes damage.

 

[Wish]

Nah, I'd still qualify the Stinking Cloud as a hit attack, as a missed attack is an attack that didn't hit, not an attack that missed. Or is it? Yay semantics.

Wait, so if Stinking Cloud hits at least one target, it can kill minions, but if it misses all targets, it can't? So an attack that hits at least one target can kill minions?

May I then cast a non-zone-creating area attack with a "Miss: half damage" entry on a group of minions, and as long as I hit at least one, they all die? Since it's not an attack that didn't hit, so it's not a missed attack?

This is exactly the opposite of the intended rule. It couldn't be more wrong, but it's the path your logic leads us down. Because you're trying to define attack as an entire power, rather than as, well, an attack. D&D has never been very good at avoiding confusion in terms, but you're deliberately confusing them and getting twisted around and backwards. You end up making minions vulnerable to attacks that they clearly should be immune to by virtue of the contortions you make to make them immune to other attacks to which they clearly should be vulnerable.

 

[Tripgnosis]

OMG, the phb, (already quoted) clearly states that the effect happens regardless of whether the power hit or missed. The effect happens just by using the power. Therefore even if the attack roll missed, the effect is NOT part of a missed attack. If you don't like the way that works, houserule it, but don't try to distort the actual rule to make it mean what you want it to mean. A miss only happens when something REQUIRES an attack roll, and that roll does not meet it's mark. Since effects don't require attack rolls, they just happen. Period. The affect goes off cuz it doesn't give a crap what you dice say. The effect portion is that stubborn kid who just does whatever he wants without any regard for what anybody says, including you. Unless you houserule it, of course. Then you've traded in that kid for a sweet little girl who cleans her room, cleans your room, and brings you the remote and a beer without any argument.

For those of you actually confused, I apologize for my tone. It was intended for those who insist that the rule says something that it doesn't....

 

[Zimri]

The affect goes off cuz it doesn't give a crap what you dice say. The effect portion is that stubborn kid who just does whatever he wants without any regard for what anybody says, including you.

So ummm not unlike someone believing a rule says one thing and clinging tenaciously to that belief despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary ?

just saying 8)

 

[Tripgnosis]

from MM: A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of
damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that
doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine
challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion.
However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally
deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

An effect to me falls into the category of "a source that doesn't require an attack roll"
If the effect deals damage, than to me it doesn't fall under the category of an attack that deals damage on a miss, cuz we're not dealing with the miss portion of the power. If a power had an effect that dealt damage and a miss that deals damage, the miss woudln't hurt the minion, but the effect still would.

 

[Tripgnosis]

You know I didn't realize this until just now, cuz I really didn't feel like reading 7 pages of an argument which, to me, has a clear and and unavoidable resolution, but SadisticFishing is the ONLY person supporting the notion that effects don't kill minions isn't he? Pretty much everyone else seems to be trying to help him see the errors of his ways, with a few posting their own confusion spawned from his stubborn heresy. REPENT, SadisticFishing, REPENT. This has gone on long enough

 

[Mistwell]

from MM: A minion is destroyed when it takes any amount of
damage. Damage from an attack or from a source that
doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine
challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion.
However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally
deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

An effect to me falls into the category of "a source that doesn't require an attack roll"
If the effect deals damage, than to me it doesn't fall under the category of an attack that deals damage on a miss, cuz we're not dealing with the miss portion of the power. If a power had an effect that dealt damage and a miss that deals damage, the miss woudln't hurt the minion, but the effect still would.

Psst. You use of illegally downloaded copyrighted documents is showing!