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Clue in the clueless

seregil

First Post
Hi all!

I have seen references in numerous posts about 4E getting the math wrong at high levels and that the "expertise" solution in the PHB2 is right/wrong/not enough.

Can someone give me a quick rundown on what the problem is?

I have yet to play 4E and have not been following the forums until quite recently. Since I barely know what I'm looking for, the 'search' function won't be of any help.
 

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Jack99

Adventurer
You need to be a community supporter to be able to search (ie pay).

Regarding the math, it's fairly simple.

Your tohit scales with +15 (½ level) + 6 (magic weapon) + 4 (stat, +6 if demigod) from level 1-30. Thats +25 or +26 total. Monsters AC scale at +1 per level, ie +30. So if you need a 11 to hit monsters of the same level at level 1, you will need a 15 at level 30 (not real numbers, but point gets across I hope. Likewise, there is the same issue with your NAD's.

The PHB2 "fixes" both with feats.

Admin here. D&D is a serious game. Stop being funny. ~ PCat
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ok first: I do not belive there is a problem (YMMV)

Second the truth of the math is that it changes as you go up levels.


Ok, lets break down how 4e works...


lets assume that the book is balanced for a 16 attack stat and a +2 prof weapon Vs AC, or a 16 att stat alone Vs Nads...Anything else is Bonus...
Now I am going to take the DMG info on monster building...everything for standard monsters AC lie between Level+12 and L+14...and NADS Level +12...to make an elite is +2 to three...and solo is another +2 to three...

Level 1
+5 Vs AC 13-16...up to 20 for solo need 8-11 up to 15 solo
+3 Vs NADs 13...up to 17 for solo need 10 up to 14 solo

Level 11
+3 magic... +1-2 att stat (+3 to the stat) +5 level
+14-15 Vs AC 23-25 up to 29 solo need 8-11 up to 15 solo
+12 Vs NADs 23...up to 27 solos need 11 up to 16 solo

level 30
+30 Vs AC 42-44 up to 48 for solo need 12-14 up to 18 solo
+28 Vs NADs 42 up to 46 solos need 14 up to 18 solo

Notice the swing at 30th level, from needing 8-11 to needing 12-14, well that 4 pt swong is what most people see as a problem


to show it another way

PC has +x to hit at level 1 and monster has y AC
over 30 levels the PC gains +15 (Half level) +4 (+8 to prome stat) +6 (Magic enhancement) so at 30th level he is at +x+25 but against an AC of y+29 becuse monster scale at every level.



Now as to why I do not see the problem...Well to put it blunt no one who doesn't do the math sees it in play (and by no one I mean not a noticable %) becuse as powers and items scale PCs have mor options. You see at level 30 you have 3 magic item uses +1 per milestone (2 more then 1st level) you also have 16 more feats specilizing you, a bunch of magic items, more powers that have better effects (other then damage that also scales) and you have more healing.

The numbers only take +x to hit Vs Y Ac into account, the wizard powers that do things on miss and hit the whole dang board are not calculated, or the cool PP powers thatt do things like auto damage, or bonus to hit, or free movement. Heck fighters have auto damage stances as early as 5th level, there are too many X factors for the math to take into account.
 


Yet another thing that needs to be mentioned is that you can also pump up stats. Don't you get +2 to two stats at every teir and a +1 to all stats at the end of each tier? I guess the designers assumed that you would always pump up your main attack stats with those pumps. Is that a wrong assumption or something?
 

Nikosandros

Golden Procrastinator
Yet another thing that needs to be mentioned is that you can also pump up stats. Don't you get +2 to two stats at every teir and a +1 to all stats at the end of each tier? I guess the designers assumed that you would always pump up your main attack stats with those pumps. Is that a wrong assumption or something?
That's the +4/+6 mentioned above.
 





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