cohort: "caused death of other followers"

[Winternight]

How do i have to understand the caused?
My group was in a dungeon and were asaulted by orcs. Some of the followers died by the assault.
Has the paladin caused the sdeath of the followers, because he ordered them to follow him in the dungeon?
If yes,
the follwers are more the useless to a group.
you are level 7+ and are getting 6 hitpoint guys.
If no,
were is the point in the caused. Only if PC say: "just hold off the dragon for one minute BRB" or if PC kills the follower by himself.

 

[Darklone]

I'd say yes, the paladin killed the followers by ordering them into the dungeon

 

[Urbannen]

Followers don't literally follow you into killer dungeons. They actually stay behind and guard your manor and tend your horses and stuff. You only actually take your cohort with you.

Since the followers only had 6 hps that means they were 1st level experts (?). If they had been 1st level warriors and they were killed fighting orcs, then I would say it wasn't the paladin's fault. Fighting orcs is the normal job of a 1st level warrior.

It is not the normal job of most 1st level experts to be ordered into a deadly dungeon. Therefore I would say that it is the paladin's fault that they were killed.

 

[Winternight]

Fighting orcs is the normal job of a 1st level warrior.

It is not the normal job of most 1st level experts to be ordered into a deadly dungeon. Therefore I would say that it is the paladin's fault that they were killed.

He has some experts and some warriors with him. And one adept.

OK
warrior may die ( if not sucidial orders) without Leadership score loss, deth of all others reduce LS.

I'd say yes, the paladin killed the followers by ordering them into the dungeo

But then he always "cause the death".
"Stay here and guard my manor, while I am dungeoniering".
DM: "Manor is attacked and sacked , you also loose 2 points of your leadship score.
Say goodbye to the 3 level warrior you have since 3 levels."

I am not shure.

 

[Halivar]

That's silly. Our group always interpreted that as directly causing the death. As in:

LACKEY: "Sir, they're overrunning our position!"
BBEG: "Fireball them all!"
LACKEY: "But sir, your own troops are fighting them!"
BBEG: *grabs lackey by the collar* "You insolent fool! Do as I command!"

Nobody wants to work for a BBEG, and I think that clause in the Leadership feat reflects this.

 

[Darklone]

In that case, he wasn't around. If he's actively commanding them around and they die, people will doubt his tactical expertise.

If they get killed guarding his home castle while he was gone: They might complain that he allows brigands to roam his lands (his king might object too), but that's it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Literally speaking, the paladin did not cause the death of his followers.

Practically speaking, it really depends on the situation. Followers should be asked to do things appropriate to their abilities. That means level one followers should not be tangling with threats greater than CR ~1 on purpose.

Being assaulted by orcs may or may not qualify. I think that bringing followers along to guard the camp and horses is a fair task in most cases. That fact it was orcs is a point of in the Paladin's favor -- they are certainly in of the range of what a properly equiped 1st level NPCs might be asked to handle for a few rounds. It should be obvious that the fact the followers can be warriors means it is reasonable to ask them to fight weak foes.

If you as a DM feel the Leader is being a little reckless with the followers, you have options that do not include hitting him with a penalty to the Leadership score. The simplest choice is to increase the time it takes for the Paladin to recruit new/replacement followers/cohort. Roleplay it out to get your point across.

 

[melkoriii]

I take it your useing 3.0 LS rules.

In 3.5 Followers can be PC classes.

On the point at hand.

I personaly think that a DM has to be carful on how he deals with this. If the DM keeps killing the followers/cohort/Pally Mount/Familar then there is a problem.

If the PC keeps sending in the followers/etc/etc and getting them killed then its the PC's fault not the DM's.

I played a Game were no mater what we did our horses got killed some time during our trip. (Dire Wolves attack the horses at night, Dragon plucks one away druning a rest stop, so on) This realy made the Paladin very upset you might imagon.

 

[Snipehunt]

I'd say yes, as far as leadership is concerned the paladin caused their deaths. Followers shouldn't be adventuring with high-level or moderate-level PC's, it's inherently deadly for low-level flunkies. If they died defending a stronghold or travelling with the PC from town to town or something "normal" like that, no problem. Dungeons though are very dangerous places and inappropriate for followers, taking them there is ordering them to their deaths.

 

[Norfleet]

If the dungeon is populated by orcs, then yes, it's reasonable for followers to be in there. Even if the dungeon is somewhat harder than that, it's not unreasonable for followers to be there as schleppers of the loot and torchbearers. Unless casualty ratios are extremely high, or the leader is extremely callous about the death of the followers, this shouldn't count against him. It's perfectly reasonable for a small group of followers to accompany the leader on adventures, serving in the baggage train: You don't need to be high level to haul the baggage around, and at 50 to a pound, all those gold pieces can get really heavy and are not something that you, as a combatant, want to be hauling around: Enter the baggage train.

Unless the followers are being subjected to some sort of undue risk that the leader is not undertaking as well, or being killed en-masse, it's being unduly mean to count this as causing their death: By that logic, ANY follower who dies could blame the leader for it: If he hadn't been a follower, he wouldn't have died. Therefore, by taking the leadership feat and attracting followers, he caused their death. But that's just mean.

On the other hand, if the party has regular cure deadness ability, and does not use this for the benefit of fallen followers as often as they do for themselves, then the followers would begin to question how much they're valued: If their lives are tacitly deemed to be worth less than the lives of the PCs in such a manner, this WOULD begin to impact follower loyalty.