Combat help, I need to be more tactical
I would also suggest going to the Character Optimisation boards over at WotC. There are some tactical geniuses over there and some of their character builds will ensure that your PCs learn to be afraid very quickly.
I would also second/third/fourth//fifth the touch attack idea. Shadow demons from BoVD will be your friend: touch attack, vile damage plus incorporeality. They fight above their CRs, let me tell you... (especially when the PCs forget about using protection from evil to hold them at bay!).
I would also second/third/fourth//fifth the touch attack idea. Shadow demons from BoVD will be your friend: touch attack, vile damage plus incorporeality. They fight above their CRs, let me tell you... (especially when the PCs forget about using protection from evil to hold them at bay!).
There's a combat tactic thread somewhere with some neat ideas.. might have been before the crash though, I can't remember. Ranks with melee fighters then longspears works well. Especially with a third rank with whips tripping and disarming PCs.
The cleric's weaknesses have been mentioned - Reflex saves and Touch AC. Asking clerics to move is often a good ploy too - a combat over some distance is often challenging when the cleric realises the problems with 20ft movement. And Ray of Enfeeblement can mean game over for the cleric who suddenly realises that full plate is really very heavy.
The cleric's weaknesses have been mentioned - Reflex saves and Touch AC. Asking clerics to move is often a good ploy too - a combat over some distance is often challenging when the cleric realises the problems with 20ft movement. And Ray of Enfeeblement can mean game over for the cleric who suddenly realises that full plate is really very heavy.
RigaMortus2
First Post
Another way to get around high ACs is to try bull rushing, since it is based off of opposed Str and you don't have to worry about hitting a target AC number in order to do it.
Use a lot of difficult terrain, magical darkness, fog, rocky ground. Make it hard for him to close in.
Use a lot of difficult terrain, magical darkness, fog, rocky ground. Make it hard for him to close in.
Nail
First Post
I've played a munchkin Cleric for a few years. The biggest weakness of a Clr? Movement.
If the enemy takes tactical control of the battlefield (with AoE spells, missile fire, and grapplers), the cleric is really out of his element.
Why don't you describe the last few combats you've seen this half-orc cleric in. I'll bet we could help more that way.
If the enemy takes tactical control of the battlefield (with AoE spells, missile fire, and grapplers), the cleric is really out of his element.
Why don't you describe the last few combats you've seen this half-orc cleric in. I'll bet we could help more that way.
Magesmiley
Explorer
Speaking as a Power Gaming Player and a DM, a big thing to do is to vary the combats. Don't use the same trick repeatedly. Try different things out to see what works well. And make sure you do try some unusual tactics in some of the combats. This gives the players some variety and also lets you see what works well and what doesn't.
Make an encounter where the key difficulty revolves around dealing with a nasty grappler. Or maybe a flying/hard-to-reach sniper. Another opponent could be using improved invisibility to sneak attack everyone, or even just to disrupt spellcasters when they're about to dish out some hurt. Try a large creature with a spiked chain and some area control feats (such as improved trip and large and in charge). How about an unarmed opponent who specializes in disarming and tossing the seized weapons to its allies. Let them face something that really is too tough for them, but which has an easy out if they think of it (a large dinosaur which the ranger can convince to leave via animal empathy would be a good example). How about an ambush with a battlefield specially prepared to make life difficult. Try out some undead who have been bolstered by an evil cleric. A few bags of caltrops liberally scattered around a battlefield are another easy way to control the area (you'd be surprised at how carefully many players avoid even minor battlefield dangers). Look for some monsters with interesting abilities - your power gamer is not likely to know all the monsters inside and out. Try using a variation of a common monster whose abilities are slightly different (a half red-dragon troll might be a good example - its a troll that is immune to fire). How about combining a trap with an encounter with enemies - have the enemies wait until the trap is sprung, then hit the players while they are down. An encounter which divides the battle into two areas with two different sets of opponents is another nice challenge - players can't use all of their typical tactics when half of the group in a separate battle.
Make sure that not all of your encounters are combat based. Encounters where there are non-combat obstacles to overcome can be just as interesting. An unstable bridge across a gorge, or a trapped idol with a very tempting treasure are a couple of the more common ones of this variety.
As far as your cleric's AC, 27 AC isn't as high as it might seem at level 6 - I've played character which have had higher ones. One big thing to realize about dealing with high ACs is to understand that the critical factor is the roll required to hit the character and that the last 5 points or so gives the greatest benefit - the difference in raising a needed hit roll from 15 to 20 is much more potent than raising it from 10 to 15. Likewise reducing a hit roll needed from 20 to 15 is more effective than reducing one from 10 to 5. Judging by the class selection, the cleric is the only one whose AC is so high.
Play monsters intelligently. If they see a tin can who is not doing a lot of damage to them, but they are being beaten up by more lightly armored opponents, beat up the more lightly armored characters. In many cases it is easier to render a high AC character ineffective in a combat by controlling their movement. If the tin can is obnoxious, shove him (via bull rush) into a hidden pit trap. The let him figure out how to get out while another enemy tosses a couple of flasks of alchemist's fire in the pit. Heck, you could even use a slope and a grease spell instead of a bull-rusher. Fairly low-level opposition, but highly effective against a high AC character.
You might consider adding a minor enemy or two whose primary job is just to raise all of the enemy's attacks. The bard mentioned with the archers is an excellent example. However, tacking in a minor spellcaster whose primary job is to just buff another enemy or three can be very effective. A relatively low-level caster can be effective by using combinations of buff spells even when there is a significant disparity between its level and the party's. Moving that hit roll from 20 down to 16 by using a couple of 1st and 2nd level spells which stack can have an incredible effect on the battle.
A moderate weakness I see here is that there is going to be a lack of depth in the arcane spellcasting area. A sorcerer character simply doesn't have the breadth of spells available that a wizard does. There are a number of situations that can be presented which certain spells make fairly easy and where a lack of depth in spell selection can make difficult. The focus on heavy damage spells is liable to compound this. The most effective spells aren't always those that dish out massive hurt to the enemy.
Consider using a master villain from the shadows whose minions the players are facing. The master villain can learn from the success/failure of his other minions and instruct his later minions to plan accordingly. Likewise, by the time the players face the master, he should know a lot about them, and have counter tactics prepared against their most likely tactics.
Hope this helps.
Make an encounter where the key difficulty revolves around dealing with a nasty grappler. Or maybe a flying/hard-to-reach sniper. Another opponent could be using improved invisibility to sneak attack everyone, or even just to disrupt spellcasters when they're about to dish out some hurt. Try a large creature with a spiked chain and some area control feats (such as improved trip and large and in charge). How about an unarmed opponent who specializes in disarming and tossing the seized weapons to its allies. Let them face something that really is too tough for them, but which has an easy out if they think of it (a large dinosaur which the ranger can convince to leave via animal empathy would be a good example). How about an ambush with a battlefield specially prepared to make life difficult. Try out some undead who have been bolstered by an evil cleric. A few bags of caltrops liberally scattered around a battlefield are another easy way to control the area (you'd be surprised at how carefully many players avoid even minor battlefield dangers). Look for some monsters with interesting abilities - your power gamer is not likely to know all the monsters inside and out. Try using a variation of a common monster whose abilities are slightly different (a half red-dragon troll might be a good example - its a troll that is immune to fire). How about combining a trap with an encounter with enemies - have the enemies wait until the trap is sprung, then hit the players while they are down. An encounter which divides the battle into two areas with two different sets of opponents is another nice challenge - players can't use all of their typical tactics when half of the group in a separate battle.
Make sure that not all of your encounters are combat based. Encounters where there are non-combat obstacles to overcome can be just as interesting. An unstable bridge across a gorge, or a trapped idol with a very tempting treasure are a couple of the more common ones of this variety.
As far as your cleric's AC, 27 AC isn't as high as it might seem at level 6 - I've played character which have had higher ones. One big thing to realize about dealing with high ACs is to understand that the critical factor is the roll required to hit the character and that the last 5 points or so gives the greatest benefit - the difference in raising a needed hit roll from 15 to 20 is much more potent than raising it from 10 to 15. Likewise reducing a hit roll needed from 20 to 15 is more effective than reducing one from 10 to 5. Judging by the class selection, the cleric is the only one whose AC is so high.
Play monsters intelligently. If they see a tin can who is not doing a lot of damage to them, but they are being beaten up by more lightly armored opponents, beat up the more lightly armored characters. In many cases it is easier to render a high AC character ineffective in a combat by controlling their movement. If the tin can is obnoxious, shove him (via bull rush) into a hidden pit trap. The let him figure out how to get out while another enemy tosses a couple of flasks of alchemist's fire in the pit. Heck, you could even use a slope and a grease spell instead of a bull-rusher. Fairly low-level opposition, but highly effective against a high AC character.
You might consider adding a minor enemy or two whose primary job is just to raise all of the enemy's attacks. The bard mentioned with the archers is an excellent example. However, tacking in a minor spellcaster whose primary job is to just buff another enemy or three can be very effective. A relatively low-level caster can be effective by using combinations of buff spells even when there is a significant disparity between its level and the party's. Moving that hit roll from 20 down to 16 by using a couple of 1st and 2nd level spells which stack can have an incredible effect on the battle.
A moderate weakness I see here is that there is going to be a lack of depth in the arcane spellcasting area. A sorcerer character simply doesn't have the breadth of spells available that a wizard does. There are a number of situations that can be presented which certain spells make fairly easy and where a lack of depth in spell selection can make difficult. The focus on heavy damage spells is liable to compound this. The most effective spells aren't always those that dish out massive hurt to the enemy.
Consider using a master villain from the shadows whose minions the players are facing. The master villain can learn from the success/failure of his other minions and instruct his later minions to plan accordingly. Likewise, by the time the players face the master, he should know a lot about them, and have counter tactics prepared against their most likely tactics.
Hope this helps.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Relax. This cleric is great news.
An AC heavy cleric is a godsend more than a problem, no matter how good he is at powergaming. This means you as a DM have the freedom to test the party with interesting challenges and they will always a Cleric to pick up the pieces of a trashed party.
In general, the best way to deal with powerful spellcasters is to disrupt their line of sight -- fog, walls, web, twisting corridors, doors, darkness, etc.
An AC heavy cleric is a godsend more than a problem, no matter how good he is at powergaming. This means you as a DM have the freedom to test the party with interesting challenges and they will always a Cleric to pick up the pieces of a trashed party.
In general, the best way to deal with powerful spellcasters is to disrupt their line of sight -- fog, walls, web, twisting corridors, doors, darkness, etc.
Oryan77
Adventurer
Nail said:
Thanks for so many good suggestions. There are a lot of ideas that I'm going to make note of and remember to throw it in an encounter sometime in the future.
I just started DM'ing this new group of people last Saturday. So I haven't gotten a good feel for this powergaming cleric yet. Pretty much the powergamers tactics were to just run up to a guy and bash him. Although he would work with the rogue to position himself so they get flank bonuses. But during the game he would continuously be looking in books coming up with ideas on combos for future powergaming tactics. So I'm not sure what to expect. For all the melee fighter goons; I needed to roll natural 20's just to hit him. They only encountered one spellcaster at the end of the game and they all failed Will saves & were stunned for 10 rounds (3 out of 4 players rolled a 4 which was weird). This NPC wasn't out to kill them though...so I didn't get to test the waters much with a caster.
I'm not looking to target the same PC in every encounter or use the same tactics. I'm also not trying to make every encounter a difficult one. So no worries there. I'm pretty good at varying my encounters...which is why I started this thread
I wanted more ideas on how to make sure I'm challenging a powergamer rather than letting him feel like none of my encounters are a threat to him. I don't want him to outshine everyone! Thanks to the replies; I think I now have a better idea on how to keep a powergamer challenged with the rest of the group. I've never DM'ed a powergamer before, so I just want to make sure I don't have to rely on rolling a natural 20 all of the time just to damage him.
Oryan77
Adventurer
Oh believe me, I'm excited about him being the cleric. As he boasted about his clerics build during the game, I reminded everyone that because of him, I now get to let loose some crazy encounters at the group once I get a feel for this groups power rangeRidley's Cohort said:
I told them that the stronger he makes their group due to powergaming, the stronger their challenges will be
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Oryan77 said:
This is where it pays to have clever foes with specialty weapons. Some people on the board will undoubtedly suggest having the bad guys use aid other to give another one +2 to hit. Resist that temptation. It's only a very marginal improvement over just power attacking for full and hoping for the 20. (Assuming ideal circumstances--a situation where a natural 20 hits because 20+attack bonus=AC, one aid other yields a 15% chance of some damage on the character while just hoping for 20's yields a 9.75% chance of rolling at least one twenty. Also note that Aid other is not automatic for NPCs who can only hit AC 27 on a natural 20. We know that there is at least a 10% chance that the aid other attempt will fail). Instead, look for ways that tactically competent bad guys can improve their chances. (Note that I say tactically competent--there are limits to the kinds of tactics you should used based upon the characteristics of the fight and your fighters--orcs should fight differently than hobgoblins, etc).
For instance, a villain could use the withdraw action to move around the PC into a flank without provoking an AoO (provided that he doesn't leave a threatened square after the first one. It's also possible that a villain could 5 foot step into a flank. Doing so provides the +2 bonus without sacrificing an attack).
Another tactic that they could use: sunder the PC's shield. Doing so would probably reduce the PC's AC significantly.
Disarming or tripping the PC is also a good tactic. Disarm is particularly effective for wielders of two handed weapons that grant a disarm bonus. Given a heavy flail, even a +6 attack bonus fighter will be at +12 when trying to disarm the cleric of a one-handed weapon. That's pretty good odds. Those same flails will enable the NPCs--even ones without improved trip to try to trip the PC without provoking AoOs.
A net is another simple way to reduce the character's AC. (And since touch attacks are generally easy, you don't even need to be proficient).
Between those tactics, a group of say 6 orcs with heavy flails or guisarms and ranseurs and a net could drop the character's AC by 10 or more (trip for -4 AC, entangle for -2 AC, sunder shield for another -2 AC, flank for +2 to hit, and disarm to deprive him of his weapon). Once he is disarmed (or even before then if you have baddies with Improved Grapple), you could grapple him.
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