Combat issues: slayer + at-will magic missile.

[tbk409]

On the issue of Magic Missile scaling:
I was under the impression that memorized spells would not scale, but instead be replaced by more powerful versions at higher levels, taking up a higher slot. Since cantrips do not take up slots, it seems they would need to scale in damage to stay relevant. My question is why Shocking Grasp does not improve.

 

[Libramarian]

scooped above, re cantrips autoscaling.

I actually don't mind the idea of casting magic missile at-will in the abstract.

Hopefully I get to play tomorrow so I can comment on all of these issues with play experience.

 

[howandwhy99]

Why are there randomly rolled Hit Points? Because of this. It provided variety across all characters.

(1d8)/2 HPs for Kobolds means a 1d8 longsword is going to cut these bozos down 1/2 the hit.
1d4+1 magic missiles will kill one every 1-2 rounds, not much worse only it never misses.

Auto-damage due to proximity to a foe I could see being done away with without some appropriate effect like being the Ice Queen. I really don't plan on having it for anyone at 1st level.

 

[Fifth Element]

I personally don't see automatic damage as a problem, but to address these concerns, maybe we should have a rule that a missed attack cannot reduce the target's hp to 0 or below. That way, the final blow that kills an opponent will always be a hit.

This would have the opposite effect of making the ability absolutely useless against kobolds.

Magic Missile requires an attack roll in OD&D.

Get out of here with your facts. We don't need them when discussing what D&D "is".

On the issue of Magic Missile scaling:
I was under the impression that memorized spells would not scale, but instead be replaced by more powerful versions at higher levels, taking up a higher slot. Since cantrips do not take up slots, it seems they would need to scale in damage to stay relevant.

This is my understanding as well, and if true is a very good reason to have cantrips scale automatically. You could say that you should just use a higher-level slot for a more powerful version of the cantrip, but then that just makes the cantrip into a daily, with the normal version of the cantrip becoming irrelevant at higher levels, which I don't think is the idea.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Currently, if you accept how the spell is worded, that would only work if the rope was a 'creature'.

Although if not, the fact that Magic Missile basically trivialises all such situations, is the biggest issue with it.

Yes, MM in 2nd and 3rd edition could not be used on anything other than creatures. Somewhere it was explicitely stated, that magic is no tool for everything, and a spell like magic missile can not be used to destroy an object.

I think MM should scale if crossbow damage also scales somehow. We don´t know enough to estimate the power.

 

[B.T.]

Magic Missile requires an attack roll in OD&D.

Moldvay: auto-hit.
Mentzer: auto-hit.
Rules Cyclopedia: auto-hit.
1e: auto-hit.
2e: auto-hit.
3.0: auto-hit.
3.5: auto-hit.
4e Core: auto-hit (post-errata).
4e Essentials: auto-hit.

 

[rjdafoe]

I am not sure magic missile is exactly auto hit every time. I am not sure what an unobstructive path for the missile is exactly. So there is a chance that it is not exactly like the old magic missile that they have to be able to see a small part of the body. They need to explain that bit a little I thinkq or just use the cover rules. If they have 1/2 cover, you can't use it.

 

[anarkeith]

A couple of things to keep in mind when we're talking out of context:

1) Kobolds should have incentive to stay out of melee range (thus, the Slayer.) They're lurkers and skirmishers by nature.

2) If Magic Missile is a cantrip, and a cantrip is a low-level spell, I think it's fine for it to fall out of use as caster level increases. It's pretty common in RPGs to get better equipment as you get more powerful. Why not better spells?

Looking at these things in isolation (and, perhaps in how they're presented in the playtest) can be a bit misleading. I'd be inclined to see how they play out longer-term and at higher levels. Auto-damage, in my experience, is more of a bookkeeping hassle than anything else. Players and DMs forget it, then try to apply it retroactively, interrupting other player's turns and slowing down combat.

In general, I don't see either of these things as game-breakingly overpowered. And, rather than seeing more rules to scale or clarify them, I'd rather see suggestions for DMs on how to better use Kobolds in encounters to scale them up.

 

[WheresMyD20]

I have a problem with the at-will spellcasting in general beyond turning the wizard into a magic missile machine-gun.

Detect Magic: There's no reason not to have this active all the time. Items, places, and people that are under a spell will always be obvious.

Light: Never a need for torches or a light source. Removes darkness as a hazard/challenge of dungeon crawling.

Magic Missile: See the rest of this thread. Way better than any missile weapon for a wizard.

Mage Hand: The ability to press, prod, and lift things safely from a distance at will. Eliminates the danger from many traps.

Ray of Frost: The poor man's hold person. Can be spammed each round to lock down a target indefinitely.

Shocking Grasp: Way better than any melee weapon for a wizard.

 

[slobster]

Detect Magic: There's no reason not to have this active all the time. Items, places, and people that are under a spell will always be obvious.

Light: Never a need for torches or a light source. Removes darkness as a hazard/challenge of dungeon crawling.

Magic Missile: See the rest of this thread. Way better than any missile weapon for a wizard.

Mage Hand: The ability to press, prod, and lift things safely from a distance at will. Eliminates the danger from many traps.

Ray of Frost: The poor man's hold person. Can be spammed each round to lock down a target indefinitely.

Shocking Grasp: Way better than any melee weapon for a wizard.

The bolded two I don't mind. I want my wizard, barring extreme circumstances or a particular character concept, to be using magic rather than swinging a sword. As long as his at-will spells aren't more powerful than other character's damage options, it's the way I'd like my wizards to be.

Ray of Frost in most fights seems fine to me; you give up your turn to have a pretty good chance of forcing an opponent to give up theirs. It doesn't work so well on opponents with ranged options. I see a problem in fights against a lone enemy, though as some people have mentioned that may be as much a problem with solo encounters as with ray of frost. I'd like both solo enemies and effects like the ray of frost to get a lot more thought, but I don't have much of a problem with it as it stands.

Detect magic at-will is great. My reading of the spell is that it requires an action each turn you want it active, so having it up all the time is impossible. Even if you do have a detect-happy wizard, he has to roll to get any real info out of it, and spells that are meant to be hidden aren't detectable. So it looks like a good piece of flavor for the wizard as well as an ability that will lead to all sorts of extemporaneous, improvisational play. Love it!

Light I don't care much about one way or the other. Easy-to-access light sources are low on my list of things to balance in the game, but if others have strong opinions on the subject I don't care if the spell goes away.