Combat rules: Need some opinions

[Kerrick]

I'm going over the combat rules for Project Phoenix, and I need some opinions from you guys. Well, that and the answer to a question.

First: does anyone recall seeing the variant rule for grapple, bull rush, etc. where the roll is 1d20 + Str + size (no BAB)? I'm almost certain I saw it on this forum, but I can't find it, and I wanted to check to make sure I had it right.

Second: Charge action. Does anyone else think that you should be able to charge across, say, a patch of ice or grease, but you suffer a -4 penalty to the Balance/Dex/whatever check to keep moving? Or to move through a patch of spike stones (same penalty)? I think it's kind of odd that you can't charge through any hazardous terrain (not to mention there are too many restrictions); I'd rather just say "You CAN do this, but you'll suffer a penalty for it." and let the player decide. Fewer restrictions means the combat maneuvers will be used more often.

Similarly, it says that you can't charge through a square containing a creature. By a strict reading of the rules, that creature could be Fine, but a Huge giant couldn't charge over/past it. Does anyone else see the absurdity here? Sure, it could be considered an overrun, but I'd just rule that you can charge over/past an ally up to two sizes smaller, or any creature up to three sizes smaller - you simply step over them, or whatever. So, for example, a human fighter can charge past his wizard companion's cat familiar (Tiny), or over a Diminutive hostile fairy (probably suffering an AoO, but hey...).

Oh, and speaking of AoOs: I think I understand the reasoning behind "moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO" - it prevents PCs from moving away to cast spells - but to my mind, anyone moving away from me, unless he's my only opponent, is going to get ignored in favor of a more immediate threat. Someone who's moving away from me is no longer a threat, at least not for the moment. Someone who's moving toward me, however, is a threat, and I should get an AoO (which would make PCs more wary about simply sauntering up to the bad guys).

And finally: I can't really do artwork, especially on a wiki, so I was thinking of simply removing most of the references to the combat grid, by implication making it less dependent on minis and the map, which is what I want to do anyway. Anyone have an opinion on this? Would restoring an element of "eyeball it and call it good" to combat be a good thing or not?

Oh yeah, forgot this one: I'm going to change the standard 5-foot step to "a combat stride" which is dependent on the creature's size. If you think about it, it makes more sense - anything up to Medium would still make a 5-foot step as normal (because a Tiny creature making a 0-foot step is just odd), but larger creatures, who are generally much taller and have a longer stride, can make longer steps - 10, 15, even 20 feet. Imagine, for example, a titan (huge) making a 5-foot step - he'd have to tiptoe. His movement is 60 feet, so it makes more sense that he could take a 10-foot step (yeah, his reach is 15, but that's a bit far, IMO).

I'm thinking something like: Fine/Diminutive: 0*, Tiny to Large: 5 feet; Huge/Gargantuan: 10 feet; Colossal/Titanic: 15 feet; etc. (it increases by 5 feet/2 size categories). *0 means the creature cannot take a combat stride unless its movement rate is 15 or more, in which case it is 5 feet.

Obviously the problem here is that it's a little difficult to remember; I was originally going to make it equal to the creature's reach, but the titan from the above example would have a 15-foot step, which is a bit much, considering his speed is only 60 feet. Also, I'm open to better terms for this - "combat stride" is something I made up on the spot.

 

[Hawken]

First: does anyone recall seeing the variant rule for grapple, bull rush, etc. where the roll is 1d20 + Str + size (no BAB)? I'm almost certain I saw it on this forum, but I can't find it, and I wanted to check to make sure I had it right.

I don't but I wouldn't want to use that either. BAB is a poor substitute to represent wrestling skill, but without it, a Fighter could easily be outwrestled by a one-armed wizard! And an ogre could be outwrestled by a halfling who managed to roll good, even though there is no physical way someone only 3' tall and 50lbs could wrestle something 9' tall and 500lbs.

Second: Charge action. Does anyone else think that you should be able to charge across, say, a patch of ice or grease, but you suffer a -4 penalty to the Balance/Dex/whatever check to keep moving? Or to move through a patch of spike stones (same penalty)? I think it's kind of odd that you can't charge through any hazardous terrain (not to mention there are too many restrictions); I'd rather just say "You CAN do this, but you'll suffer a penalty for it." and let the player decide. Fewer restrictions means the combat maneuvers will be used more often.

No. You try running on ice, you fall down. Its not a matter of if (dice) but when (certainty). Same with grease and any other slick surfaces. Spike stones would not only slow a person down but seems like they would prevent them from being able to even walk--sharp stones through the feet and legs would do that! The rules say no, I believe, because its just pretty much physically impossible. Yes, people can walk on broken glass or nails, but not while running full tilt. Same thing with ice or whatever, you instantly lose traction. Velocity might be the same but you're either going to be moving down (falling), off to the side (ending the charge) or gliding forward (losing momentum and ending the charge) trying not to fall.

The point of a charge is to build up enough speed that the opponent can't get out of the way of your attack. You lose that velocity, the charge ends.

Regarding charging through occupied space, I'd say if they are two sizes smaller (or smaller than that), they do not hinder the charge; and maybe even allow a free Overrun or Trample on anything in those spaces. If you charge, a cat isn't going to trip you up, its going to get squashed or punted.

About the 5' step, I'd say 5' for Small and Medium (smaller than Small does not get it). Large get 10' step, Huge get 15', Gargantuan get 20', Colossal get 40' and Titanic get 60'. Of course, I think base speed should also be proportionate in many cases. A 5' person can move 30' as a move action, so a 60' person should be able to cross a proportionate distance (360') as a move action. A 6' human has roughly a 3' stride and can move 30'. A 60' human would have about a 30' stride and so should be able to move some 300' or so. Moving only 60' would be like taking only 2 steps.

 

[Kerrick]

I don't but I wouldn't want to use that either. BAB is a poor substitute to represent wrestling skill, but without it, a Fighter could easily be outwrestled by a one-armed wizard! And an ogre could be outwrestled by a halfling who managed to roll good, even though there is no physical way someone only 3' tall and 50lbs could wrestle something 9' tall and 500lbs.

I suppose so. Someone over on the PF forums suggested using 1/2 HD or level in place of BAB. I must have been dreaming about the removing the BAB thing, because I could've sworn I saw it somewhere.

No. You try running on ice, you fall down. Its not a matter of if (dice) but when (certainty). Same with grease and any other slick surfaces. Spike stones would not only slow a person down but seems like they would prevent them from being able to even walk--sharp stones through the feet and legs would do that! The rules say no, I believe, because its just pretty much physically impossible.

Yeah, good point.

Regarding charging through occupied space, I'd say if they are two sizes smaller (or smaller than that), they do not hinder the charge; and maybe even allow a free Overrun or Trample on anything in those spaces. If you charge, a cat isn't going to trip you up, its going to get squashed or punted.

I found out last night that you can make an overrun as part of a charge (as the single attack you get), but I'd give a free overrun for something much smaller, like you say.

About the 5' step, I'd say 5' for Small and Medium (smaller than Small does not get it). Large get 10' step, Huge get 15', Gargantuan get 20', Colossal get 40' and Titanic get 60'. Of course, I think base speed should also be proportionate in many cases. A 5' person can move 30' as a move action, so a 60' person should be able to cross a proportionate distance (360') as a move action. A 6' human has roughly a 3' stride and can move 30'. A 60' human would have about a 30' stride and so should be able to move some 300' or so. Moving only 60' would be like taking only 2 steps.

I'm working off the standard base speeds for size - Large is 40, Huge 50, Gargantuan 60, Colossal 70. Since Medium size is basically 1/6th base speed (or 1/5th, round to the nearest 5), I went with what I posted.

 

[Gansk]

I'm working off the standard base speeds for size - Large is 40, Huge 50, Gargantuan 60, Colossal 70. Since Medium size is basically 1/6th base speed (or 1/5th, round to the nearest 5), I went with what I posted.

Then just keep it simple by using the 1/5th formula, rounding down. That makes Medium and Large have a 5 foot step, anything bigger has a 10 foot step. If the creature has a lower speed than the standard, use the same formula to recalculate.

Page 148 of the PHB allows creatures of three size categories difference to move past each other, so you should apply this rule to any charge action.

 

[Kerrick]

Then just keep it simple by using the 1/5th formula, rounding down. That makes Medium and Large have a 5 foot step, anything bigger has a 10 foot step. If the creature has a lower speed than the standard, use the same formula to recalculate.

I was thinking of doing it based on movement rate, but I thought that might too hard to calculate in the middle of battle. That and the odd cases like the quickling, which is Small but has a ridiculously high speed. But... it'd probably be easier, since all you have to do is look at the speed, divide by 5, and round down, rather than look at the size and try to remember the stride length.

Page 148 of the PHB allows creatures of three size categories difference to move past each other, so you should apply this rule to any charge action.

Ooh, I missed that. Good catch.

 

[Sylrae]

First: does anyone recall seeing the variant rule for grapple, bull rush, etc. where the roll is 1d20 + Str + size (no BAB)? I'm almost certain I saw it on this forum, but I can't find it, and I wanted to check to make sure I had it right.

I can see the dropping of BAB for bullrush, but not for a grapple... grapple involves wrestling skill, as mentioned. Of course, the grapple rules are so annoying all the people ive played with basically ignore it as a possible action, so it only ever gets done by monsters with a huge advantage, really...

Second: Charge action. Does anyone else think that you should be able to charge across, say, a patch of ice or grease, but you suffer a -4 penalty to the Balance/Dex/whatever check to keep moving? Or to move through a patch of spike stones (same penalty)? I think it's kind of odd that you can't charge through any hazardous terrain (not to mention there are too many restrictions); I'd rather just say "You CAN do this, but you'll suffer a penalty for it." and let the player decide. Fewer restrictions means the combat maneuvers will be used more often.

Charging through sharp rocks shouldnt be possible, after 5 feet of running youd be so injured you could barely walk. but charging through a grease spell or on ice? thats reasonable. you couldnt START a charge from on ice or a grease spell, and id make them make tumble or balance checks to try to turn or weave there (assuming theyre able to from the feat). You obviously dont RUN on the ice, but its ice. so you get your momentum, slide to the other side, and keep running. if the target is on the ice, you need some way to see if they can plan the momentum so they stop in time to attack, inless they want to slam into him. I personally think the swashbuckler charge ability should apply to everyone and be part of the charge action, but I like my players coming up with creative maneuvers.

You need movement rules for on ice, basically, like how far you can slide, how to get into a slide, etc.

Oh, and speaking of AoOs: I think I understand the reasoning behind "moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO" - it prevents PCs from moving away to cast spells - but to my mind, anyone moving away from me, unless he's my only opponent, is going to get ignored in favor of a more immediate threat. Someone who's moving away from me is no longer a threat, at least not for the moment. Someone who's moving toward me, however, is a threat, and I should get an AoO (which would make PCs more wary about simply sauntering up to the bad guys).

I came up with an alternative to the AoO system, the basic idea is anyone has a free attack they can make against an opponent unable to defend themself. flat-footed, unconscious, running away with their back to you, etc. You can make the attacks from a range. However, you become flat footed, and thus others can AoO you until your next turn. in addition, the AoOs can be declared in any order, but they happen according to init bonus. so if the enemy fighter is gonna AoO the party wizard, and im a ranger with a high dex, I can potshot him from 30 feet away before he gets his attack, since he declared he was giong to make it. If he takes damage he doesnt get his AoO. Of course, if his rogue buddy is nearby he can stab me to try to stop me from shooting. The thing i havent worked out is how to do a spot check so you kno someone is dropping their guard to make an AoO.

And finally: I can't really do artwork, especially on a wiki, so I was thinking of simply removing most of the references to the combat grid, by implication making it less dependent on minis and the map, which is what I want to do anyway. Anyone have an opinion on this? Would restoring an element of "eyeball it and call it good" to combat be a good thing or not?

I personally hate the introduction of squares in 3.5. It detracts from the suspension of disbelief to refer to distances in terms of squares. plus, not everyone uses a grid, and even if thye do, they may use a hex grid. I say change all the measurements back to feet. besides. i get annoyed that I can't be "between 2 squares" I mean why the hell not? lol. I still say. use tapemeasures if you wanna be that anal about it. 5 ft = 1 inch. lol.

Coolest thought ever. an lcd table. load your maps on a bigass board, to scale, and then put your minis on that. that would be soo awesome. (and likely cost about 4-5k for a 6 foot lcd, but still)

you ever notice that when they give you a map in say, a module, that has a grid, its never player usable? always way to small, or the scale doesnt represent something easily convertible into 5 foot squares?

as for the combat stride, 1/5 or 1/6 of movement sounds like the best way to go. I'd go 1/6 and not round them. but as mentioned, im not a big fan of the square grid. well actually, the limits of the square grid. (like partial square movement, and the hassle of making your maps conform to the grid so all the walls line up with the grid, all walls are 5' thick etc.)

 

[Kerrick]

I can see the dropping of BAB for bullrush, but not for a grapple... grapple involves wrestling skill, as mentioned. Of course, the grapple rules are so annoying all the people ive played with basically ignore it as a possible action, so it only ever gets done by monsters with a huge advantage, really...

Yeah. I'm using the PF system, with some changes.

Charging through sharp rocks shouldnt be possible, after 5 feet of running youd be so injured you could barely walk. but charging through a grease spell or on ice? thats reasonable. you couldnt START a charge from on ice or a grease spell, and id make them make tumble or balance checks to try to turn or weave there (assuming theyre able to from the feat). You obviously dont RUN on the ice, but its ice. so you get your momentum, slide to the other side, and keep running.

That's basically what I was thinking - you start on solid ground, slide across the ice/grease, and hopefully keep your footing long enough to make it to solid ground again. I'd say that if the target is also on the ice, there's no way to do anything BUT slam into it. I mean, if someone tried it, I'd certainly allow it - say, a DC 15 Balance or Dex check, and treat it as a bullrush (which you can do as part of a charge).

I came up with an alternative to the AoO system, the basic idea is anyone has a free attack they can make against an opponent unable to defend themself. flat-footed, unconscious, running away with their back to you, etc. You can make the attacks from a range. However, you become flat footed, and thus others can AoO you until your next turn.

That sounds overly complicated - a whole chain of AoOs that have to be resolved, stopping combat.

I personally hate the introduction of squares in 3.5. It detracts from the suspension of disbelief to refer to distances in terms of squares. plus, not everyone uses a grid, and even if thye do, they may use a hex grid. I say change all the measurements back to feet. besides. i get annoyed that I can't be "between 2 squares" I mean why the hell not? lol. I still say. use tapemeasures if you wanna be that anal about it. 5 ft = 1 inch. lol.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing - I kept squares for monster movement, since it's optional, but I removed it for combat.

as for the combat stride, 1/5 or 1/6 of movement sounds like the best way to go. I'd go 1/6 and not round them. but as mentioned, im not a big fan of the square grid. well actually, the limits of the square grid. (like partial square movement, and the hassle of making your maps conform to the grid so all the walls line up with the grid, all walls are 5' thick etc.)

You kind of have to round, since all movement rates are in multiples of 5 - it's just easier that way, grid or not.

 

[Sylrae]

Yeah. I'm using the PF system, with some changes.

Ah, I started with 3.5 and then started adding pathfinder things, as opposed to starting with pathfinder.

That's basically what I was thinking - you start on solid ground, slide across the ice/grease, and hopefully keep your footing long enough to make it to solid ground again. I'd say that if the target is also on the ice, there's no way to do anything BUT slam into it. I mean, if someone tried it, I'd certainly allow it - say, a DC 15 Balance or Dex check, and treat it as a bullrush (which you can do as part of a charge).

exactly. the only thing is, whats a simple rule to say how far you can slide on ice? and how much movement do you need on regular ground to get that sliding on ice?

That sounds overly complicated - a whole chain of AoOs that have to be resolved, stopping combat.

It's not so bad, AoOs happen less frequently, because people know that do do an AoO they have to drop their guard and others can attack them. Additionally, taking an AoO means you lose your dex to AC, (this part needs work, it should be like 'lesser flat footed', cause you shouldnt lose ALL AC bonus, just the dex part. like monks should keep their WIS bonus, and duelists should keep their int bonus.). It also means, if someone doesnt declare an AoO when you do, they have a free one they can make against you until the start of your next turn.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing - I kept squares for monster movement, since it's optional, but I removed it for combat.

Good Stuff

You kind of have to round, since all movement rates are in multiples of 5 - it's just easier that way, grid or not.

I guess, but that Idea, only works when the creature has a movement speed thats a multiple of 30. otherwise there is no benefit from a 50 foot move speed, etc. It just seems to me that there should be.

 

[Kerrick]

Ah, I started with 3.5 and then started adding pathfinder things, as opposed to starting with pathfinder.

I found the PF system much cleaner and easier to use as a base. The 3.5 grapple rules are way too overcomplicated.

exactly. the only thing is, whats a simple rule to say how far you can slide on ice? and how much movement do you need on regular ground to get that sliding on ice?

Oy... too many rules. I'm just going to keep the "you can't charge over hazardous terrain" rule and leave the acrobatics for special cases (PrCs and feats). Off the top of my head, I'd say you could slide twice as far as you moved on solid ground or half your movement rate, whichever is less (ice/grease still has friction, which means you'll eventually stop).

It's not so bad, AoOs happen less frequently, because people know that do do an AoO they have to drop their guard and others can attack them. Additionally, taking an AoO means you lose your dex to AC, (this part needs work, it should be like 'lesser flat footed', cause you shouldnt lose ALL AC bonus, just the dex part.

Flat-footed IS "no Dex bonus to AC". Everything else (except dodge) still applies.

I guess, but that Idea, only works when the creature has a movement speed thats a multiple of 30. otherwise there is no benefit from a 50 foot move speed, etc. It just seems to me that there should be.

Eh. I don't see the point of splitting it that fine. (As an aside, I also put in a cap to max combat stride length based on size; this prevents, for example, a Small creature with a huge move from taking ridiculously long combat strides).

 

[Sylrae]

I found the PF system much cleaner and easier to use as a base. The 3.5 grapple rules are way too overcomplicated.[/qoute]I'll have to look at that.

Oy... too many rules. I'm just going to keep the "you can't charge over hazardous terrain" rule and leave the acrobatics for special cases (PrCs and feats). Off the top of my head, I'd say you could slide twice as far as you moved on solid ground or half your movement rate, whichever is less (ice/grease still has friction, which means you'll eventually stop).

That seems like a decent rule of thumb, except for one thing. if start the slide near the end of the move, it doesnt make sense to me that you should necessariy stop sliding at half your move. If I have a 20 foot head start, and a 30 foot move speed, I think I shoul get the extra 40, on the ice, for a total of 60. i dont really agree with the slide cap.

Granted, effectively the round would end at move 40, assuming a regular move. but im not sure making them continue their slide at the beginning of the next round would be worth the effort, accuracy or no.

Flat-footed IS "no Dex bonus to AC". Everything else (except dodge) still applies.

I could have sworn the swashy and monk AC bonus doesnt normally apply when flat footed either.

Eh. I don't see the point of splitting it that fine. (As an aside, I also put in a cap to max combat stride length based on size; this prevents, for example, a Small creature with a huge move from taking ridiculously long combat strides).

The small goblin monk with a move of 100 should totally get his 20 combat step