Combate Exp. + Fighting Defensivly

[Kabol]

Can you Use combat Expertise -And- Fight Defensively at the same time? I know Dodge bonuses usualy stack - and thise 2 actions add dodge bonuses to your AC.

 

[drunkmoogle]

Yes, you can use both at the same time. They stack.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, altho it is kinda weird, that you're better off fighting defensively than using total defense then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Majere]

Yep, altho it is kinda weird, that you're better off fighting defensively than using total defense then.

Bye
Thanee

But you need a feat AND 13 int
So your fighter has invested both stats and a feat in order to be able to improve on total defence which everyone gets for free.
Seems fair to me.

MAjere

 

[Thanee]

It is. The question is, why is that fighter not better at total defense?

Bye
Thanee

 

[atom crash]

I read the Combat Expertise feat as an alteration to how fighting defensively works:

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Int 13.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Emphasis added is, of course, mine.

I wouldn't allow for the bonuses to stack, since it appears from the text that they are the same bonus: you can't use Combat Expertise and fighting defensively together because Combat Expertise IS fighting defensively for those who have the feat. This feat allows you to fight defensively in a much more efficient manner -- you trade to hit and defense bonuses on a one-for-one basis rather than two-for-one and you get to choose how much to use -- but it is still fighting defensively.

 

[Ranger REG]

It is. The question is, why is that fighter not better at total defense?

Because honestly there is no trade-off in terms of penalty. In total defense, you forego any attack(s) for the +4 bonus to AC. Fighting Defensively (used in both attack and full attack actions), you make a trade-off of attack penalty for AC bonus. It's hard to penalize your attack(s) when TD pretty much forego your attack(s). So what can you trade off for the bonus?

 

[Aaron2]

This feat allows you to fight defensively in a much more efficient manner -- you trade to hit and defense bonuses on a one-for-one basis rather than two-for-one and you get to choose how much to use -- but it is still fighting defensively.

The only problem is the limit on BAB. I guess it only affect a first level fighter who can only get +1 AC if he has the Expertise feat but +2 AC otherwise.


Aaron

 

[Thanee]

One feat (Combat Expertise), that's the trade-off

Really, if you compare the two... in total defense, the fighter gets +4 AC and no attacks.

With defensive fighting, the fighter gets +7 AC and can still attack (even though at -9). Touch attacks (Improved Trip is in the Combat Expertise chain) still work fairly well.

I just think it's kinda funny, that the supposedly weaker defensive option, which still allows you to attack, gives almost twice the AC bonus then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I read the Combat Expertise feat as an alteration to how fighting defensively works:

You can do that, of course, but it's a house rule.

By RAW, it's allowed to do both and stack them:

1. They are Dodge bonuses.
2. Both are "non-actions" that may be employed when taking an Attack or Full-Attack action.

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]

Prerequisite: Int 13.

Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

You can fight defensively only when you use the full attack action or attack action (see page 124 of the Player’s Handbook), but if you do, you can use Expertise along with it. (Because fighting defensively is mentioned in the Expertise feat description on page 82 of the Player’s Handbook, some people think Expertise is just a better way of fighting defensively, but that’s not true.)

The FAQ is 3.0, of course, but falls under the "If they didn't change it, it still works the same" clause.