D&D 4E Combining Vancian and Will/Daily from 4E

[Ellington]

This is a bit of a crazy idea that just occurred to me, but would it be possible to combine the two?

Let's imagine that the 5E wizard gets a very limited number of spell slots. Say, two at first level, and no more from intelligence or whatever. However, the spells he can put in those slots have a varying amount of uses. A magic missile prepared in one of the slots could be used at will, as long as he prepared it that day, but a spell like sleep could only be cast once per day for each spell slot it was prepared in.

This would allow the wizard to customize just how he wants to use his power. Does he want to prepare a lot of at-will spells so he has flexibility throughout the day or does he want to hang back and save his slots for some big daily spells? It would also work around the somewhat arbitrary daily restrictions spells had by giving you a price to pay if you wanted to use them more often.

Just a thought.

 

[RangerWickett]

I like it.

Honestly I would prefer if wizards only had a handful of 'daily' spells each day, even at high level. Maybe give them the ability to swap some out with a bit of preparation, but having to pick 50+ spells per day is a little ridiculous.

I like your idea quite a bit.

 

[YRUSirius]

I said the following in the 1E arcane magic thread, but I'll repeat it here if you don't mind:

I'd like to see daily spells eliminated completely. Keep encounter spells though, which replenish after a short rest and coin their game term something like rest spells. Balance them appropriately. Spells still have to be prepared after a short rest.

I'd like to see 20 spell levels. Every wizard gets 1 "rest spell" per spell level + some kind of at-will spells, some utility magic tricks (detect magic, mage hand etc.) and rituals. That's what I'd like to see in D&DNext.

-YRUSirius

 

[Janaxstrus]

I said the following in the 1E arcane magic thread, but I'll repeat it here if you don't mind:

I'd like to see daily spells eliminated completely. Keep encounter spells though, which replenish after a short rest and coin their game term something like rest spells. Balance them appropriately. Spells still have to be prepared after a short rest.

I'd like to see 20 spell levels. Every wizard gets 1 "rest spell" per spell level + some kind of at-will spells, some utility magic tricks (detect magic, mage hand etc.) and rituals. That's what I'd like to see in D&DNext.

-YRUSirius

They've already pretty much said they are going back to the successful 35 years of Vancian magic.

As far as Daily/Encounter powers (which I am not a fan of), they did something similar this in 3.5 with the Reserve feats. I didn't see them used a lot, but they were interesting.
Basically you could take a reserve Acid feat, and as long as you had an uncast spell with the acid descriptor (as an example) you could cost an acid bolt that did xd6 (where x was the level of the spell remaining)

 

[DEP]

I used to like the idea of at-wills with Vancian magic. Then it hit me, I like lower magic games, and isn't an at-will essentially the same as firing a crossbow or throwing daggers/darts?

Most players I see around my area always want an extra burning hands/magic missile. So really, isn't that the same as using weapons, or throwing oil.

I personally run low magic, low combat games, and people get by with their one spell slot in B/X or LL when I run. I see no problem at all with having Vancian magic stay the same. It worked from the 70's through to 2008, so why change it. To me it is part of D&D.

People need to learn resource management, and not to blow your spell on the first enemy you see. Throw oil and holy water if undead, use retainers, etc.

 

[dkyle]

If 5E has no options for Encounter spells/powers, or something similar, it's a lost cause to me. So this proposal doesn't do much for me. It's really only a little different from the "feats for at-wills" approach they've talked about.

Vancian + at-wills addresses some of the silliness of Vancian (i.e., the 1st level Wizard with a crossbow, or worse, darts), but not the fundamental balance problems. My guess is, if 5E does have a place at my table, it will only be with Vancian options stripped out entirely.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

I like to see something closer to 2e, with a bit of 4e thrown in.

I like the idea of the way 4e did utility powers, and I would make them all work that way.

Lets say at level 5 I have 1 3rd level spell, 2 second level spells, and 4 first level spells per day. Lets say I have in my spell book 1st: Magic missle (at will) Sheild (encounter) Mage armor (daily) Sleep (daily) Burning hands (encounter) 2nd: Scorching ray (encoutner), Color spray (encounter), Spider Climb (at will), and 3rd: Fireball (daily), Dispel magic (encounter)

I could then prep Fireball (daily), Scorching rayx2 (encounter), Magic missle (at will), Sleepx2 (daily), and Shield (encounter)

then I would have 1 at will, 3 daily (sleepx2), and 3 encounter (scorching rayx2)

 

[Ellington]

If 5E has no options for Encounter spells/powers, or something similar, it's a lost cause to me. So this proposal doesn't do much for me. It's really only a little different from the "feats for at-wills" approach they've talked about.

I guess. I'm just very opposed to the idea that you should need to spend a feat to get an at-will spell, or any sort of attack in general. I hated having to get a bunch of arbitrary feats to be able to perform a spinning attack in 3.5. I feel that attacks and spells should be tied in to your class, feats would allow you to customize your character regardless of class. They shouldn't take the same resource. Sacrificing a flavorful trait for your character like "iron will" or "alertness" because you want to be able to do something in combat is bad design in my opinion.

This idea is my preferred alternative to keep at-will spells if we're going to have to keep vancian magic.

 

[YRUSirius]

As far as Daily/Encounter powers (which I am not a fan of)

I'm okay with encounter powers, because they can be presented as a pretty elegant fatigue mechanic. In a quick burst of time (1:30 m combat/encounter) you have only so much energy to fight efficiently or cast spells. That's why I never had problems with encounter spells - not even encounter maneuvers. You got to have to take a quick breath after the encounter to get your energy back. Not much tracking too, just "tap" your spell and be done. The daily limit on classic daily vancian casting seems more arbitrary than some kind of short rest limit (encounter power, just don't call it that ).

-YRUSirius

 

[dkyle]

I guess. I'm just very opposed to the idea that you should need to spend a feat to get an at-will spell, or any sort of attack in general. I hated having to get a bunch of arbitrary feats to be able to perform a spinning attack in 3.5. I feel that attacks and spells should be tied in to your class, feats would allow you to customize your character regardless of class. They shouldn't take the same resource. Sacrificing a flavorful trait for your character like "iron will" or "alertness" because you want to be able to do something in combat is bad design in my opinion.

This idea is my preferred alternative to keep at-will spells if we're going to have to keep vancian magic.

To me, spells, feats, class features, powers, whatever, are all essentially the same. They're build resources that can be spent on various things. And they all can end up having issues with "flavorful" vs. "useful". Under your scheme, a caster needs to choose to give up preparing a flavorful utility spell, so he can do something in combat. I don't really see much difference between that, and giving up a flavorful feat to do something in combat.