Come and (Don't) Get It?

[Plane Sailing]

Die roll is absolutely irrelevant in this matter. Would you like the ability really that much better for you if there was an attack vs Will? If so, just assume there is an attack vs will, but with a +50 bonus and a 1 is not a failure.

Hey, what a fantastic idea! We could do that with all the other powers too!

In other words, why are you proposing something completely ridiculous to a reasonably described problem?

 

[Garthanos]

I think there is a mistake assuming the martial power source is entirely based on muscle and discipline. For one thing I let fighter powers bleed in to luck, trickery and manipulating or seeing through the fog of war (specialties of other Martial types).

Insult (or similar social manipulation) and faking vulnerability are probably the primary elements of this power .... so what happens... when you dont have those to rely on?.. dash in heroic luck which may result in wierdnesses like you smelling like something which tasted real good to the giant slug... just noticed the salt in your sweat or something. (The character doesnt even really know why)

When the power is applied against a relatively normal enemy it might be a verbal goading if its against a primordial super genius something more extreme may have happened at this point in the game I think extreme luck is par for the course you will need it against Orcus which is why I went with reincarnate of former foe...

but...

Powerhouse evil I normally envision as very driven by ego no matter how brilliant so I am not so certain the Fighter couldnt say to Orcus why worry about him he is no consequence in comparison to your might. I on the other hand am going to hand you your family jewels while little girls laugh at you... and get orcus to frothe or fall over laughing himself and land much closer to the fighter ;-)

Most forced movement of the unconscious - not dead is going to be other pcs... heroics lurching towards consciousness when inspired to
fall back moments later because it wasnt enough .. picture them mumble crawl drop.

"I am stuck visualizing this power only one way" is indeed a reasonable problem.

 

[Dan'L]

I'm going to try breaking this into two parts, and see if that helps. The first is the fluff:

My one and only point, which has been blown a bit out of proportion, is that the Martial Power source is about Strength and Willpower (exact quote from PHB), not about supernatural magic.

I will also note that the same source states that they "are not magic in the traditional sense" and supplies the caveat that "some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals."

This can easily be interpreted in the first part that there is a magic to martial source powers, just not "traditional. And in the second part, "beyond... ordinary" sounds a lot like "supernatural" to me.

I'm not suggesting that you're wrong to want fighters and rogues and such to have their powers rooted in the heroically mundane, I'm just not so sure the game makes the distinction that you do about strength and willpower being mutually exclusive to supernatural magic.

***

In what I see as a second, separate issue is the actual game mechanics of the power. It has always felt a bit "off" to me that the power allows forced movement without an attack roll, particularly in the heroic tier. I would think that some sort of attack v. will (or maybe ref) with hit of pull with a secondary attack v. AC for damage would be more in line with game balance.

I know that, as a player, I'd feel cheated to have a monster do a force move on my PC without having to "hit" one of my defenses first.

-Dan'L

 

[DracoSuave]

How Batman would do it:

He'd run over, hip toss the guy over to where he wants him to be. He'd then grab another guy, punch him in the back, sending him reeling to the central beating up area. He'd then hurl a batarang, undo a cable over a some dangling object, landing behind a third mook, scaring him into coming towards Bats, and lastly, for the last guy... he'd turn his back, fiegn weakness, and the stupid would charge him.


Once all the mooks were in position... he'd start doing his combat against them until they were unconscious.


If Batman can do it, it's definately not out of line for the Martial power source.

 

[Benlo]

How Batman would do it:

He'd run over, hip toss the guy over to where he wants him to be. He'd then grab another guy, punch him in the back, sending him reeling to the central beating up area. He'd then hurl a batarang, undo a cable over a some dangling object, landing behind a third mook, scaring him into coming towards Bats, and lastly, for the last guy... he'd turn his back, fiegn weakness, and the stupid would charge him.


Once all the mooks were in position... he'd start doing his combat against them until they were unconscious.


If Batman can do it, it's definately not out of line for the Martial power source.

Indeed.

I think I almost want to brew a Martial Controller just to get people to be quiet about these things. Hell, Batman himself is kind of a martial controller, with his gadgets.

 

[Garthanos]

He'd then hurl a batarang, undo a cable over a some dangling object, landing behind a third mook, scaring him into coming towards Bats

Rminds me of one of my favorite skinnings for lightning lure...
It is a summoning from the sky and he never hits with the silly thing it comes crashing down behind the bad guy... he over shoots and the target gets hurled towards him.

Anything you can picture tripping a bad guy and causing them to stumble.

I run up to hamstring the big bad or kick it behind the knees and realize he might fall on me and run back... he doesn't go down more than a moment but is now hot on my heals.

 

[Nichwee]

I think the Martial Source needs it's own catch-all explaination.

When asking the question "How did you do that?":
Arcane users have "Magic did it."
Divine users have "The Gods did it."
Primal users have "The spirits did it."
Psionic users have "By the power of my mind."
Shadow users have "The shadows did it."

And for Martial?
How about "By being badass!" ?

 

[Garthanos]

And for Martial?
How about "By being badass!" ?

Sometimes... but my Rogue/Warlord says "hell if I know ... I'm just a lucky git." Others might say its "It's skill mam all skill, with just a swagger of badassery of course"

We get more enumerated results for martial

 

[Nichwee]

Sometimes... but my Rogue/Warlord says "hell if I know ... I'm just a lucky git." Others might say its "It's skill mam all skill, with just a swagger of badassery of course"

We get more enumerated results for martial

All good choices. I was just suggesting a nice if you can't work out how that happened then just say X and get on with it phrase. As poor old Martial powers seem to run into the simulationist issues that all the other powers just get round without anyone even bothering to ask "How?"

 

[Benlo]

I think the Martial Source needs it's own catch-all explaination.

When asking the question "How did you do that?":
Arcane users have "Magic did it."
Divine users have "The Gods did it."
Primal users have "The spirits did it."
Psionic users have "By the power of my mind."
Shadow users have "The shadows did it."

And for Martial?
How about "By being badass!" ?

"How did you do it?"
"Skillfully.

Reminds me making that joke more less when asked how a Ninja Turtle is able to use his weapons with only a limited number of fingers.
"How does he use that?"
"Effectively!"