Come to the dark side...

[RigaMortus2]

Are there any rules out there that would permanently change a person's attitude (or even alignment) w/o using some sort of magic? My DM brought this question up to me, and he used the example of Darth Vader trying to turn Luke to the dark side. There was no "magic" (or even force) involved. He was basically trying to talk him into joining him.

So, not including magic (which can fade/be dispelled), is there any way (probably through use of a skill or feat) that has a long-lasting effect to turn someone's attitude one way or the other? Most of the social skills (Diplomacy & Intimidate) are temporary and will wear off after awhile.

Any rules, or is this basically more of a roleplay issue? (ie if the player wants to change his attitude, he just does so... if the DM wants to change an NPCs attitude, he just does so).

 

[Musrum]

Complete Divine has the Evangelist which has something like that as a class ability.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Complete Divine has the Evangelist which has something like that as a class ability.

Ahhh... Very good... I hadn't thought of that. Will give it a look.

 

[Sejs]

Long, extended, successive diplomacy. Changing someone's outlook like that isn't something you can really do all at once, it'd take little baby steps over time.

First convice them that you're a pretty cool guy and that it's plum dandy how you two get along. Then slowly, teaching both by example and by lecture, show 'em how your way (that is, you know, evil) rocks the casbah all while making sure that they maintain that same high opinion of you throughout.

Eventually they'll come around.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's a roleplay issue coupled with long-term use of diplomacy if you persuade him, or intimidate if you brainwash him.

Or, if you play with Star-Wars like rules, use first the spells scare or cause fear, then frenzy. According to Star Wars philosophy, that will instantly turn him into a Sith Lord. Really. Do it one or two times and he'll start using a nerdy name with even more nerdy spelling and paint his sword red.

 

[mordulin]

Book of Exalted Deeds list the rules for converting evil to good through the usage of Diplomacy checks. Takes a lot of time and the convertee can resist. You could apply the rules in reverse to have someone fall or even say it takes less rolls/time since it seems to be easier to fall than be redeemed.

 

[IcyCool]

Book of Exalted Deeds list the rules for converting evil to good through the usage of Diplomacy checks. Takes a lot of time and the convertee can resist. You could apply the rules in reverse to have someone fall or even say it takes less rolls/time since it seems to be easier to fall than be redeemed.

It takes about two weeks to turn a chaotic evil, baby-eating, blackest soul on oerth human away from his ways. And if you have even a remotely good diplomacy check, resistance is completely futile. The only good thing about that rule is that it states it doesn't work on evil outsiders.

 

[Rkhet]

Resistance is completely futile even with a mediocre diplomacy check. You just need to make sure the guy isn't carrying any will-enhancing gear, you have a cleric and/or bard buffing you, and if necessary give him some negative levels/wis drain. It's totally broken.

 

[Bad Paper]

Are there any rules out there that would permanently change a person's attitude (or even alignment) w/o using some sort of magic? My DM brought this question up to me, and he used the example of Darth Vader trying to turn Luke to the dark side. There was no "magic" (or even force) involved. He was basically trying to talk him into joining him.

Are you so sure there was no Force involved? I always assumed there was. If Jedi can pull the "these are not the droids [for which] you are looking" trick, then who knows what fantastic things Sith can pull on Jedi? Particularly while twanging the familial-bond string? Vader's and Skywalker's interaction was a unique situation. You don't think that Vader crawled inside Skywalker's head and poked the "perhaps your sister will join us" button? I don't think that exchange was entirely verbal.

Oh, and there was lots of roleplaying, too.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Book of Exalted Deeds list the rules for converting evil to good through the usage of Diplomacy checks. Takes a lot of time and the convertee can resist. You could apply the rules in reverse to have someone fall or even say it takes less rolls/time since it seems to be easier to fall than be redeemed.

Doesn't the same book have rules for instant conversions? I recall an example of an evil guy choosing at the last moment to do a good act, even though it kills him--and that one good act changing his alignment from Evil to Good.

It's Darth Vader at the end of Jedi, when he grabs and chucks the Emperor.