D&D 5E Common sense isn't so common and the need for tolerance

Li Shenron

Legend
Part of the problem with rulings, not rules, in a game system is that it requires adjudications like this. The more rich and detailed the game world created by the DM, the more freedom given to players to do things outside of the relatively detailed combat rules, the higher the probability that the DM will have to make an adjudication based on the DM's common sense; even if that is simply to set the level of the DC check.

And that's why rulings, not rules, requires a level of tolerance and trust at a table. Because not everyone has the same ideas, or the same "common sense" as to what should be the case. The bat/silence thread was a great example of that. Different DMs might have rules of thumb (such as the proverbial "rule of fun" - rule for the most fun result for the party) to help them, but the end result is that only through a level of trust and respect at the table combined with an understanding that there will necessarily be different perspectives on issues* can rulings, not rules, work.

Undersigned :)

And the problem is really in the people, if they are intolerant towards someone elses' opinions and common sense views.

Sometimes falling back to the RAW actually helps to stop useless discussions. Some other times, the DM has to have the guts to make a decision with the purpose of letting the game continue; the key perhaps is to tell the players openly that this decision isn't necessarily the 'right' one, but it's only for the sake of not spoiling the evening. It's just a game after all...
 

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I don't really think they are directly corelated. If I always did decisions based on what's most fun for the group (which I actually do), then most decisions might be realistic, but others are not. Always depends on the situation. I usually try to not make monsters kill off a downed PC if there are still other threats around, unless it's absolutely unreasonable that it doesn't or the player of the PC got tired of his character and wants to try something new anyway.
 

dave2008

Legend
We have always allowed 3rd party material and homebrew. If we decided somethings is bent or broken, we fix it and move on.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
It may or may not be 'realistic' - healers aren't too realistic, in any sense - but it would definitely be fun... for the DM... the first time...

You know, there is a reason field medics and nurses are protected by the Geneva convention....
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
You know, there is a reason field medics and nurses are protected by the Geneva convention....
Yeah; but here we're running under the Lake Geneva Convention, which includes no such niceties and pretty much amounts to 'anything goes'....
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I usually try to not make monsters kill off a downed PC if there are still other threats around, unless it's absolutely unreasonable that it doesn't or the player of the PC got tired of his character and wants to try something new anyway.
I tend to base it on several factors: the state of the combat, the intelligence of the opponent(s), the hunger level of the opponent(s), and whether killing a PC as opposed to just knocking it out holds any material benefits for the opponents. (an example of the latter might be an intelligent undead that's downed a PC and knows that finishing off said PC will generate another undead under its control and tilt the battle odds in its favour a bit)

Lan-"and if unsure I just roll randomly"-efan
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
If you ever trawl through threads where DMs get together to crow about how their PCs do dumb things, then take special note:

A very high number of those stories come down to the DM failing to communicate something to the player, the player declaring their action and the DM interpreting that in a nonsensical fashion, while at the same time declaring that there are no takebacks.

This applies to everything from the legendary "Gazebo" incident to characters in modern games detonating petrol tankers with ordinary gunfire and destroying city blocks, to the frankly bizarre skill DCs that are baked into 5e.

Sometimes these incidents are harmless and funny (ie - The dread gazebo), other times they're excessively punitive (the tanker) and sometimes they are just generally a downward weight on how the game plays (5e skills).

But all of them can be solved with better communication - and communication means not just saying something, but ensuring that it is understood.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
I tend to base it on several factors: the state of the combat, the intelligence of the opponent(s), the hunger level of the opponent(s), and whether killing a PC as opposed to just knocking it out holds any material benefits for the opponents. (an example of the latter might be an intelligent undead that's downed a PC and knows that finishing off said PC will generate another undead under its control and tilt the battle odds in its favour a bit)

Lan-"and if unsure I just roll randomly"-efan

Adventures in Middle Earth has an ability that some monsters have that makes a character fail their first death saving if their attack reduces them to 0 hit points. I've adopted it for a number of creatures. It's a nice middle ground.

As for whether a monster will continue, some in the past (like the Peryton) specified that they will continue to attack and ignore other threats. I think that's pretty rare. To me:

Animals, or animal-like monsters (predators) will, if anything, attempt to take the downed creature to a safe place to eat. Predators aren't generally interested in attacking to kill everybody there, just one to get a meal.

But they very well may have spent one or more extra rounds killing the prey, because to them it's attack-attack-attack until the creature is no longer trying to escape and/or defend itself. But they only way they know if it's really not moving is to stop the attack, and if they stop it too soon, it might escape. So they probably overshoot pretty frequently.

Many predators are used to fighting for their food too, but a solid hit against a predator will likely cause it to attack the source of the attack, or retreat. Most animals in my campaign have a fear of fire, too, so a torch is a very effective defensive weapon.

Most of the time, though, creatures like those are driven off by the fact that the party is fighting back in my campaign. It's tough enough for a predator to get enough food to survive, and survival depends on being healthy. No sense in sticking around when the prey fights back that well.

Mindless creatures, at least those oblivious to the risk of death, might very well continue to attack. A ghoul, for example, might not only immediately start to feast, but might have to fight off other ghouls. Like predators, they may try to pull the downed creature away from others. Zombies will probably continue to attack the creature until they are attacked by another creature.

Moderately intelligent evil creatures, such as orcs, etc., will gladly take an extra stab or two at a corpse, provided they aren't in immediate danger themselves. If somebody else is attacking them then they'll continue the attack instead.

Most venomous creatures (like snakes) will bite then retreat, waiting for the venom to take effect. The black mamba, however, is an exception to this rule, and will strike multiple times and pursue their prey, for example.

So I guess in response to the OP, I use a considered approach. Most of these types of tendencies are addressed well ahead of time, and the adjudication portion comes with unique circumstances. In a recent scenario, I had a predator with young, and determined ahead of time that they would defend the young aggressively, well beyond when they would disengage a hunt. But at about 25% hit points, they would disengage and leave the young to whatever is attacking them. This behavior is found in many animals in the wild. Just because a creature might be a "monster" rather than a normal animal, ecology works roughly the same way. They still have to survive within the world. And it's not a consideration of how they survive or how they act when confronted by an adventurer. Most individuals of a given species may never, ever run into an adventurer. Instead, they have to deal with their normal prey or sources of food, and their normal predators.

I do dig a little deeper, such as figuring out how their special abilities work within the wild. And this consideration is within the world, not the rules. For example, a cockatrice. What would be the purpose of their ability to turn creatures to stone? Even if it was spontaneously gained due to a magical event, once they have the ability, how would it change their behavior?

One option is like the basilisk, which is noted as being able to eat the creature that is petrified. In which case their ability is very similar to snake venom - immobilize the prey, so they can feed. Which means that the idea of statues left after a basilisk attack is unlikely - they use their ability to gain a meal. Being seemingly reptilian in nature, one meal probably lasts a long time. So if a group of creatures were petrified, their might be some left. But I would guess they could eat two or three at a time.

That doesn't seem appropriate, for the cockatrice, though, and the 5e stats indicate that the petrification lasts 24 hours, and they are omnivores eating small creatures in addition to berries, etc. So for me, it's defensive. If they are threatened, they attack, turn their predators to stone, and escape. So the recent encounter with a flock of cockatrices was essentially a flock of chickens that exploded out of the underbrush, made some attacks on the way, and scattered. They were a nuisance, other than the fact that I retain a system shock check when turning back to flesh.

I'll also modify a creature to account for its abilities for the same reason. For example, what benefit would the displacement be for a displacer beast? Sure, it has a defensive component, but if that was a natural ability that it has had for hundreds if not thousands of years, I think that as a predator it's most likely to be used in hunting. My answer? Their tactics (supported by a new mechanical ability).

Displacer beasts are pack hunters, and they attack by scaring the prey in an attempt to escape, which mechanically means it triggers an opportunity attack. But their displacement means they aren't where the prey thinks they are. So they have advantage on opportunity attacks. And that's their hunting tactic - drive the prey to attempt to escape and into a trap. More often than not, it's not making a primary attack, only opportunity attacks, then pursuing and stalking the prey if it escapes.

Opportunist: The displacer beast has advantage on opportunity attacks, and they make two attacks, one with each tentacle, when making an opportunity attack.

Add in the fact that it's similar in many respects to a large cat and it has six legs, I've also added a climbing ability. It's really a terrifying monster as a result.

As for whether a creature would attack an adventuring party? It depends.

A bear might attack if surprised, but will most likely run away. A dire or grizzly bear, on the other hand, might be noted as being more aggressive and press an attack for a couple of rounds before running away.

This is likely the case with any predator that doesn't view humanoids as prey. A tiger or lion might attack and kill a human, but unless they aren't able to get their regular food, won't press the attack. On the other hand, in regions where their natural food sources are in decline, then you find the man-eating tigers that have learned that humans are edible. Furthermore, they often find they are easier prey to catch than many of their natural foods.

--

Would adventurers cast silence on bats? Well, if they were trying to be quiet to not disturb the bats, perhaps. Sometimes it's easier to cast the spell on the bats, then ensure that you all stay within the effect of the spell.

--

In the end, for me anyway, the more you start with reality as a starting point, the more resources you have to answer these questions before they come up at the table. You can alter them to suit your needs, of course. "Rulings not Rules" doesn't mean you won't have a solid framework to work from.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
The one type of opponent that realistically would always make sure to finish off a PC at every opportunity would be another adventuring party, as in theory they would know how these sort of things work just as well as the PCs. At the same time, if the PCs don't take time to finish off downed foes in such combats they'll pop right back up...
 

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