comparing defense bonuses of various systems

[GlassJaw]

I posted a similar thread in the Mongoose Conan forums but have yet to receive any replies.

Anyway, I've been taking a look at various systems lately (Conan, Grim Tales, Star Wars, d20 Modern, Unearthed Arcana, etc) and they all have fairly different defense bonus ranges.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to what were some the design decisions behind making the defense bonuses of the various sytems what they are. For example, in almost all of the above systems I mentioned, the defense bonuses start at a value above 0. In Conan, all the bonuses start at 0.

Now I know some of these differences are due to using armor as DR, the prevalence of magic in the world, the use of shields, etc. but does anyone know of any specific design criteria or calculations used in determining these bonuses?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I posted a similar thread in the Mongoose Conan forums but have yet to receive any replies.

Anyway, I've been taking a look at various systems lately (Conan, Grim Tales, Star Wars, d20 Modern, Unearthed Arcana, etc) and they all have fairly different defense bonus ranges.

I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to what were some the design decisions behind making the defense bonuses of the various sytems what they are. For example, in almost all of the above systems I mentioned, the defense bonuses start at a value above 0. In Conan, all the bonuses start at 0.

Now I know some of these differences are due to using armor as DR, the prevalence of magic in the world, the use of shields, etc. but does anyone know of any specific design criteria or calculations used in determining these bonuses?

Well, I don't have Conan, but I do have Wheel of Time. From what I've seen, Grim Tales uses exactly the same class bonuses as D20 Modern.

In Wheel of Time, you can't benefit from armor/shield and class Defense at the same time, except for one lonely class. This brought complaints from players - why is my Aiel warrior bothering to carry a shield when it does nothing? (I guess woodsmen and other such warriors never bothered to learn how to parry while wearing armor.)

In Wheel of Time, class bonuses start high, but they did solve the problem of multiclassing Defense bonuses. Because they all start high, you take a penalty (I think -3) when you multiclass. In the end, you end up with a pretty smooth progression, even though it starts high when you need it (low-level characters have lame hit points, etc).

I think it's done the same ways in Star Wars, except they use armor as DR.

In D20 Modern, class bonuses stack with armor, and except for the Fast class, the starting bonus is fairly low. You have to pay for taking armor feats (they don't come free with any base class), which means you aren't hosed if you're playing a "light-fighter" (you get to put those feats elsewhere, instead of just wasting class features). Furthermore, if you wear armor that you are not proficient with, you get only a very small bonus. (You don't need to worry about a D20 Modern Telepath wearing a forced entry unit without proficiency.) You don't suffer weird penalties like attack penalties or Defense penalties for wearing armor you are proficient with, as you've already spent up to three feat slots on it, and the encumberance rules are reasonable.

The Defense bonuses can get quite high. (IMO, the Fast class Defense bonus is a bit front-loaded and armor feats should cap out at +2 armor, instead of +3.) The class bonuses always stack with each other, but IME, this is only a problem if the character is taking levels in Fast.

PS is the WotC board down? It is for my computer...

 

[Psion]

Green Ronin's Advanced GM's Guide has a nice variant I like to encourage light armor. Basically, it gives you a dodge bonus from class and level, but the max dex bonus in armor becomes a max dodge bonus.

It's a bit more gradual than the d20 modern advancement scheme, so I think if I were to use it (no if; I will be using it), I would (am) use the fractional accounting to facilitate multiclass characters.

 

[AmorphousBlob]

One thing that I'm fairly sure applies is how common armor is in the setting. For example, DnD doesn't have class defense bonuses because armor and magical defenses are fairly common, but in Star Wars, armor is only really used by armed soldiers, such as stormtroopers and, to a lesser extent, fighter pilots. Because of this, a defense bonus is something put there so that people don't have to wear armor to increase their defense, since that's like making people use something that most people don't use anyway.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I just had a face-to-face discussion with GlassJaw on this and I'll summarize my comments here.

Every game basically has a combat engine with multiple dials:

1) Pace/methods to increase Attack bonus (class-based BAB increase, magic, APs, feats, etc.)

2) Pace/methods to increase Defense bonus (armor, class-based Def, magic, APs, feats, etc.)

3) Pace/methods to increase Damage dealt (magic items, class abilities/talents, spells, feats, etc.)

4) Consequences of Damage dealt (hit points, vitality, massive damage, etc.)

5) Consequences of Death (ie, is it more important to protect high level characters because Raise Dead does not exist?)

Every game system is going to turn those dials to different places. Once you set all of those dials, what you are going to get out of your combat engine is the "feel" or mood of the game: gritty? grim? high action? etc.

So without even delving into the specifics of each of these systems, I can very generally say, "The reason all of these elements are different is because each system is trying to evoke a different mood."

And in some cases (d20 Modern, Grim Tales) the system may be designed so that it can handle multiple moods.

 

[Storyteller01]

One thing that I'm fairly sure applies is how common armor is in the setting. For example, DnD doesn't have class defense bonuses because armor and magical defenses are fairly common, but in Star Wars, armor is only really used by armed soldiers, such as stormtroopers and, to a lesser extent, fighter pilots. Because of this, a defense bonus is something put there so that people don't have to wear armor to increase their defense, since that's like making people use something that most people don't use anyway.

I believe this was part of the game design. In the movie, very few folks wore armor so the game was designed to minimize the use. It wouldn't have the same feel, players working on the advantages of the system and all...

But then, this goes back to Wulf Ratbane's statement.

 

[AmorphousBlob]

I believe this was part of the game design. In the movie, very few folks wore armor so the game was designed to minimize the use. It wouldn't have the same feel, players working on the advantages of the system and all...

But then, this goes back to Wulf Ratbane's statement.

Exactly my point. I was just using Star Wars as an example, because it's VERY familiar. I could just have easily pointed out that the DnD book "Unearthed Arcana" had a variant rule in it for defense bonus and pretty much stated that it was intended for settings in which armor was uncommon.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Now I know some of these differences are due to using armor as DR, the prevalence of magic in the world, the use of shields, etc. but does anyone know of any specific design criteria or calculations used in determining these bonuses?

Well, early in the 3e/d20 Modern era, there was a campaign setting released called Second World. A fairly interesting setting, the writer analyzed the differences between the Modern and Fantasy AC bonuses. He concluded that the Modern defense bonuses are intended to offset/equal the magical equipment bonuses.

He also had a alot of other good ideas, it's well worth checking out.