[Complete Divine] Radiant Servant of Pelor is too powerful.

[danielinthewolvesden]

One obvious point to be made, for people that have played RSOP PC's, is that talking about your personal PC is immaterial to the discussion. Whether you found it weak OR strong OR average.

When discussing PRC design, you have to step back and see the big picture - think not only about your local campaign, but the thousands of others taking place across the globe. In sum, RSOP does seem very powerful. Many bonuses, few drawbacks. And who said +2 to will saves within 10 feet is fluff? .

Actually, just the opposite. Just looking at a class tells one little- one must actually see it played .

The D6 is a major powerloss. If you don't believe me, there are scads of ranger players who insited the new 3.5 ranger was seriously nerfed by going from a D10 to a D8.

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

The Sun domain kicks major arse!! It's one of the better domains out there. So are some of the spells of the Strength domain (not to mention that kickin' ability! ) Try to find a mid-level cleric who DOESN'T cast spells such as Searing Light and Flame Strike!! Dare ya! I've yet to have seen any cleric NOT cast those spells. I had one cleric who LOVED to throw around Flame Strikes like nobody's business!! She was only so-so at times in the turning dept (average CHA score and 4-level loss from multiclassing) but she was kick butt in the combat department!

Yesbut- effectively the RSOP doesn't get any spells from any domain 'cept healing. Taking anything outside the Healing Domain and you waste two major class benefits. And, Healing domain has the worst selection of spells of them all.

Like I said- I have played this PrC. Dropped it becuase it was BORING . Unless there are undead, you are completely & utterly a healing monkey. Ook, heal, Ook, heal- rinse & repeat. Yes, I'd love to have one in the party. "Oh Cleric! I need healing! Here's a nice bannana for you!" But they suck to play.

Think it's so darn powerful- try playing one. Oh, but if you do- be sure to bring plenty of Mtn Dew or No-Dooze.

 

[The Souljourner]

The Sun domain kicks major arse!! ... Try to find a mid-level cleric who DOESN'T cast spells such as Searing Light and Flame Strike!!

Searing Light and Flamestrike are 3rd and 5th level cleric spells and as Sun domain spells... 3rd and 5th level. ...whoopee. If you don't get a bigger selection of spells or get them earlier than usual, it's not much of a benefit.

Fire Seeds is damn cool, Fire Shield is ok, but not spectacular. Endure elements and heat metal are crap.

... not exactly an inspiring write-up.

It's an ok domain, but nothing to write home about.

-The Souljourner

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Endure Elements and Heat Metal are the stuff you have to endure to get to the good spells of the domain. From Searing Light on, all of the Sun Domain spells are quite good. The domain power is pretty neat too at low levels when you regularly run into undead that you can turn but won't necessarily destroy. (Turning ordinarily ends a combat, of course, but if there's an evil cleric nearby, he'll just dispel your turning unless you destroyed them--also, incorporeal undead have a nasty habit of floating through walls as they run away, which means that, unless destroyed, they just come back a couple minutes later).

Fire Shield, for instance is extremely good for martial clerics. Wizards can't really afford to cast fire shield and wade into attack range because, while they'll inflict a few hit points on their enemies, they will go down pretty quickly. Clerics, on the other hand, can get their standard's action worth out of fire shield because they have the hit points to take a few hits and the ability to heal themselves when they start fealing the heat.

Of course, a RSOP isn't likely to be a martial cleric and won't get as much milage out of Fire Shield as he might otherwise. Still, it's a very good spell for clerics.

Searing Light and Flamestrike are 3rd and 5th level cleric spells and as Sun domain spells... 3rd and 5th level. ...whoopee. If you don't get a bigger selection of spells or get them earlier than usual, it's not much of a benefit.

Fire Seeds is damn cool, Fire Shield is ok, but not spectacular. Endure elements and heat metal are crap.

... not exactly an inspiring write-up.

It's an ok domain, but nothing to write home about.

-The Souljourner

 

[ForceUser]

The D6 is a major powerloss. If you don't believe me, there are scads of ranger players who insited the new 3.5 ranger was seriously nerfed by going from a D10 to a D8.

No it isn't. It's an average of one hit point per level.

Of course, a RSOP isn't likely to be a martial cleric and won't get as much milage out of Fire Shield as he might otherwise. Still, it's a very good spell for clerics.

I disagree. He gets full plate armor, heavy shields and martial weapon proficiency. That's a martial cleric.

 

[two]

Rather the point

Yesbut- effectively the RSOP doesn't get any spells from any domain 'cept healing. Taking anything outside the Healing Domain and you waste two major class benefits. And, Healing domain has the worst selection of spells of them all.

Like I said- I have played this PrC. Dropped it becuase it was BORING . Unless there are undead, you are completely & utterly a healing monkey. Ook, heal, Ook, heal- rinse & repeat. Yes, I'd love to have one in the party. "Oh Cleric! I need healing! Here's a nice bannana for you!" But they suck to play.

Think it's so darn powerful- try playing one. Oh, but if you do- be sure to bring plenty of Mtn Dew or No-Dooze.

You have amusingly, and possibly unwittingly, precisely illustrated the point I was making, which you responded to at the top of this page.

Obviously you have played a RSOP, and found it boring because, for reasons entirely of your own chosing, you decided to simply "heal" other party members instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage. Or use a longbow, or whatever.

My point precisely. You are in a terrible position to judge the class as a whole, given your skewed personal experience and (seemingly) narrow view of what can or can't be done with a full-caster cleric with martial weapon proficiency plus nice healing benefits and etc. other advantages.

Forgive me if I sound rude, but I'm definately not paying the slightest bit of attention to your personal RSOP experience. As I said before, the most over-powered PRC can seen weak or lame in a special setting, or with a player doing strange stuff. It's immaterial to the question of, as a whole, is a PRC powerful, weak, average, overpowered, etc. Which needs to be looked at not from a micro, rather a macroscopic view.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You have amusingly, and possibly unwittingly, precisely illustrated the point I was making, which you responded to at the top of this page.

Obviously you have played a RSOP, and found it boring because, for reasons entirely of your own chosing, you decided to simply "heal" other party members instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage. Or use a longbow, or whatever.

Playing a RSoP as a combat focussed cleric is certainly possible. However, despite the martial weapon proficiency, it's definitely a suboptimal choice.

First, martial clerics generally choose different domains. War, Strength, Destruction, Luck, and Travel tend to be popular with martial clerics. Elf, Dwarf, and Metal tend to be quite popular among the non-core domains. None of those are an option for a character who is going to get the most out of his RSoP levels. His domains need to be Sun and Healing. And, while Fire Shield is a very good spell for a martial cleric, using it will mean not using his extra healing ability to its fullest since he's using his 4th level slot for something other than cure critical wounds (the spell with the most significant individual curing potential increase due to RSoP powers).

Furthermore, the RSoP has to take 8 ranks of Heal skill and the Extra Turning feat. For a human cleric, that still leaves him with two feats before 6th level, and 8 skill points (assuming a 10 int). For a nonhuman cleric, that only leaves him with one free feat and no free skill points (unless he neglects his Concentration skill which martial clerics are loath to do).

A martial cleric focussed on archery really needs point blank, precise and rapid shot and Zen Archery helps a lot too. There's not really enough feats for a non-human RSoP to be a decent archer before 9th level and even though a human could become good by 6th level, they'd have to make it up to 6th level as an archery focussed cleric using a crossbow.

A martial cleric focussed on melee combat generally finds power attack, weapon focus, and Quicken Spell vital. A non-human cleric CAN do that but he'll have no free feats before 9th level and will need to replace his main weapon after becoming a Radiant Servant if he wants to take advantage of his martial weapon proficiencies. A human cleric has a bit more flexibility, but he still faces the need to replace his main weapon when he gets martial weapon proficiency.

So, all of that adds up to this: A RSoP can still be a martial cleric if he wants to and can still kick the bad guys butts up close and personal. But he won't be as good at it as non-prestige class clerics who are designed to do so.

 

[The Souljourner]

What Elder-Basilisk said. Assuming you ignore martial weapon proficiency as a typo (it is completely out of character for an otherwise very characterful prestige class), RSoP is flat out worse than a single class cleric in melee.

I do dispute that you have to take Sun and Healing. I'm playing a RSoP in a game where my old character died, and I'm not taking Healing until I get the bonus domain. Yes, even with the RSoP's extra abilities with the Healing domain it still sucks that much. I'm taking Glory, since it's a hell of a lot more useful than Healing (and I'm taking Augmented Healing as a feat, which blows the Healing Domain's granted power out of the water).

A RSoP is better than a straight cleric at two things - turning and healing. And healing only very slightly. Yeah, immune to disease, +2 will save, whatever. When was the last time you saw a cleric worrying about diseases or will saves?

Much of the problems people are attributing to the PrC really stem from how powerful clerics are in general. RSoP really aren't any more powerful.

I'm definitely not going to be sitting back and healing with my RSoP, but I really can't see him being any more potent than a normal cleric unless undead are involved... more flavorful, sure, but not more powerful in any real game shifting way.

-The Souljourner

 

[danielinthewolvesden]

instead of using the RSOP's martial weapon proficienty, heavy armor proficiency, large number of buffing spells, and good hit points (d8 -> d6 is a loss of one point per level of RSOP, on average) to wade in and do some serious melee damage. .

D6 is low average. NOT "good". Really, when the 3.5 ranger came out the reduction from a D10 to a D8 had many experienced ranger players saying they could no longer be a front rank fighter.

Like The Souljourner & The Elder-basilisk both wisely said- if you wanted a melle build cleric- the RSoP would be the last one you'd take. Oh, don't get me wrong- my cleric did whap a few monsters with his mace. But when the choice was down to doing 26 points of healing to one of our guys with no chance of failure or a D8+2 with a 50-50 shot of hitting to a bad guy- there is no real choice if you're a team player.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

I, for one, disliked the ranger's reduced hit die. The same would go for the Radiant Servant's. Not one for a melee fighter either. This is a "stand back and be second rank personnel" type of class. Definitely not a front-liner, IMO.

I've built a melee cleric, granted starting at 11th level. Human. Concentrated on fighting-related feats and was in the front line. So was a different cleric (who did worship Pelor, the first didn't). I don't think I would with this one. I'd be in the back lines like a wizard I'm playing in a different game.