Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[BryonD]

That seems odd to me. Why would summon monster become a fire spell when used to summon a fire elemental, but summon nature's ally wouldn't?

Heh, you could hand wave it as "it is just calling up part of nature" rather than an arcane control of the fire element......

But I'd think the better answer is "it is an oversight".

 

[Eela6]

Let's say we've got a Great Wyrm Blue. The wizards can easily stand such that he's not going to take out very many in one breath weapon. If you assume large killings on the part of the dragon, that's fine too, though we may want to knock the wizards' number up to 50 in that case. 50 will kill the thing in two rounds without casualties and can easily do so in three rounds even losing 10 or 15 men per round.

EDIT: Based on your last edit, I think you've forgotten that I'm explaining why the force attack would be overpowered as a touch attack, not in its current incarnation as a non-touch.

Even as a touch attack, the Needle of Force is hardly overpowered, even in your overblown example. Let's take a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon, as you said. It casts as a 17th level sorcerer. It has 8th-level spells - four of them, to be exact. Let's give it three buffs - Persistent Scintillating Scales, Persistent Shield, and Extended Greater Mage Armor. This costs it a fourth-level slot and an 8th-level slot, as well as two feats. Since it has 13 feats, it's not a big deal. In fact, it doesn't need Mage Armor or Shield, there's just no reason why it doesn't have them - or a zillion other buffs for the matter.

This gives it a touch AC of 43 - and a flat-footed AC of 53.

Unless each wizard has an attack bonus higher than 23, they aren't hitting on anything but a natural 20. 50 Wizards will get an average of 2.5 natural 20s, but I'm going to be generous and say that they all get initiative, they're all within fifteen feet, and three of them manage to hit. They do... let's see, 22.5 damage in total. Which would be a big deal if it were more than 4% of it's hit points.

Since they're all within 15 feet of the Dragon, they've got to all be within 60 feet. The Dragon then casts Horrid Wilting.

Assuming they all make their DC 24+ fortitude saves, they still take an average of 29.75 damage. Since the average hit points of a fifth-level NPC wizard (assuming 14 constitution) is 24, they all die. I mean, sure, one or two might live. But they're fifth level, they don't have Teleport or even Dimension Door. They're fighting an enemy that has Limited Wish and thirty-eight hit dice.

Shiny, ain't it?

 

[Kalshane]

I finally got the book today and have only had a chance to briefly skim through it so far. I do, however, agree with the assessment that making the Reserve Feat powers count as Supernatural is too much. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me from a thematic standpoint (mages use spells, not supernatural powers. "Hmm, this creature is immune to my spells. Luckily I can turn turn my latent magical power into something that seems very much like magic, but actually isn't. Ha, take that!") or from a balance one. I really like the Reserve Feat concept, but I think they're going to be considered Spell-like in my game.

 

[Ashardalon]

*blink*

Actually, I was just looking at the spells, and I realized that SNA lacks the "type changing" rules that the SM spells have.

That seems odd to me. Why would summon monster become a fire spell when used to summon a fire elemental, but summon nature's ally wouldn't?

In any case, my prior answer stands; just substitute summon monster for SNA.

You mean that text?

When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

If so, it's part of the SNA 3 description (the first level where it can summon aligned creatures, but elementals start at SNA 2, oddly enough).

 

[Mouseferatu]

You mean that text?

If so, it's part of the SNA 3 description (the first level where it can summon aligned creatures, but elementals start at SNA 2, oddly enough).

Huh. You're right. I just glanced at SNA 1, and was surprised not to see it.

Shows the danger of assumptions...

 

[Felon]

Since they're all within 15 feet of the Dragon, they've got to all be within 60 feet.

That's actually a point I've downplayed about Invisible Needle's lousyness; on top of relatively weak damage, on top of requiring a normal attack roll, on top of being only a single-target attack, it also has a crappy range of 5 feet per spell level. Just lousy. Awful. Bad. All I can think of is that was genuinely intended to be invisible.

Assuming they all make their DC 24+ fortitude saves, they still take an average of 29.75 damage. Since the average hit points of a fifth-level NPC wizard (assuming 14 constitution) is 24, they all die. I mean, sure, one or two might live. But they're fifth level, they don't have Teleport or even Dimension Door. They're fighting an enemy that has Limited Wish and thirty-eight hit dice.

Shiny, ain't it?

Well, I'm sure there's some 6th or 7th or 8th-level cleric or wizard or druid spell that can be cast as many times as necessary to protect a small army of wizards from horrid wilting, and so after a moment's deliberation Rystil will rule that adjusting the parameters of his scenario to allow for that poses no problem.

Yes, Rystil, at this point I am giving you a little well-earned ribbing.

 

[Kaodi]

Still...

Caster level bonuses stack though, don't they? So, it might be interesting to be a human druid 12 with spell focus (conjuration), augment summoning, borne aloft, hurricane breath, wind-guided arrows and summon elemental, using control winds and summon natures ally v... You could then summon air elementals at caster level 16, and with their augmented strength and constitution, they'd make even nastier whirlwinds. Also, the abilities from borne aloft and hurricane breath could be used while wildshaped, could they not? And depending on how hurricane breath works, may even be more effective using large forms. At the highest levels, I'd work towards getting that greater metamagic rod of maximize, and elemental swarm might just become very... wrong.

 

[Victim]

The caster level bonuses from reserve feats are competence bonuses to caster level. So they aren't going to stack.

 

[Felon]

I really like the Reserve Feat concept, but I think they're going to be considered Spell-like in my game.

I agree. They just went a little overboard in their thinking that the reserve power should be freely available with virtually no restrictions.

I'd say the reserve feats also probably merit some entry-level requirement, sort of like how heritage feats require you to take a useful yet not-so-great feat to begin with. Heck, the caster level bonus is arguably featworthy in and of itself.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The caster level bonuses from reserve feats are competence bonuses to caster level. So they aren't going to stack.

But they do (the competence bonuses from individual reserve feats, I mean.)


I'm liking Complete Mage a lot. It's put even more fun into high fantasy D&D.

I like the character options, feats, spells, items. . . even PrCs! And that's just so far.