Computers beat up my role player

[molonel]

I can't say if a MMO is a real RPG. Some people do role play in them, lightly. But they IME are the vast minority. I don't consider them a role playing games when I talk of RPG's though. Some do but I think the differences are pretty vast.

It's certainly a valid question. But if we're going to consider what is a "true" roleplaying game, and discount games that are merely "seek & destroy missions" then doesn't that eliminate rather a lot of the gaming experiences we've enjoyed and talked about, here?

 

[Gentlegamer]

You need to read what I'm saying more carefully.

Perhaps you need to make your assertions more carefully.

I said roleplaying games, and I did not limit it to tabletop, nor to D&D alone. I still haven't seen compiled sales figures which would account for all roleplaying games, including the PDF market, nor the number of players in every RPG genre. You're only addressing D&D in your comments here, and as I pointed out, D&D is not the only shop on the block, anymore.

D&D is, and always has been, the far and away market leader in every respect. That was one of the driving premises of the OGL.

World of Warcraft is a roleplaying game.

World of Warcraft is a video game. There is a genre of video games commonly called "RPGs" but that is not the same as D&D or any other actual role-playing game. I love the Elder Scrolls series of video games, and quite enjoy the extant they allow me to "role-play" within the context of their game engines, but they are not RPGs; they are video games.

It sold 2.4 million copies worldwide during the first 24 hours after the release of its first expansion.

There is no doubting the rising popularity of video games and that industry's sucdess. But it really isn't relevant to the industry that is the subject of this online community: D&D, and role-playing games in general.

Add D&D to that? Add World of Darkness players? Add every small independent game company, and games like C&C, CoC, GURPS, whatever, and you have more people playing roleplaying games now than ever before.

You might be on track if you start with D&D and add what you mentioned, but starting with video game "RPGs" is wholly inaccurate.

I am not misinformed on this subject. You are in error.

It's not a matter of being misinformed on this subject; you are conflating too distinct entertainment media to pad your numbers to reach the assertion that "there are more people playing role-playing games now than ever before." You are in error that video games are role-playing games.

Since you noticed the distinction, my assumption that you were smart enough to make it was evidently well-founded.

Since you understand the distinction, it is disingenuous for you to group them together to back your assertion.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Sorry Gary, but you're the father (or perhaps grandfather) of EverQuest, World of Warcraft, Lineage and all the rest. Even if you don't like the bawling brats you spawned.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

As I mentioned before, parsing words.

One plays a role to an audience. In game form that mans at least a Game Master that responds in kind according to the words spoken. More generally the audience for such play includes one or more additional player participants.

The time one spends preparing for play is immaterial to the game form. the game cam be wholly extemporaneous.

Those are facts, not opinions. When MMPs have AI that is capable of raking over the role of the GM they will be actual RPGs. As thay stand they mosrt assuredly are not, as there is no Game Master or other audience to which to role-play, affect the course of the game bydoing so.

I will waste no more time on this subject.

Cheers,
Gary

 

[molonel]

Perhaps you need to make your assertions more carefully.

Ultimately, what separates me from Col_Pladoh and you is a philosophical difference of what constitutes a roleplaying game. I knew my assertion would raise some hackles, and I could have scripted some of the replies myself.

You were smart enough to pick up on it.

So no, I didn't need to.

D&D is, and always has been, the far and away market leader in every respect. That was one of the driving premises of the OGL.
World of Warcraft is a video game. There is a genre of video games commonly called "RPGs" but that is not the same as D&D or any other actual role-playing game. I love the Elder Scrolls series of video games, and quite enjoy the extant they allow me to "role-play" within the context of their game engines, but they are not RPGs; they are video games.

Okay, so you believe that MMORPGs are not roleplaying games, nor that video games can be considered RPGs.

Neither you, nor anyone else, has yet produced any sort of numbers to account for all RPGs, either. Please include the PDF market, C&C, CoC, Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, everything that comes out of Malhavoc Press, everything sold by every independent publisher and everyone who uses the SRD to play using OpenRPG or through chat lines on IRC or AOL private rooms.

Then, you'll have an argument. Until then, merely comparing sales figures from "D&D back when it was king" to "D&D in a market saturated with other games" is ... how do you say? ... padding the numbers.

There is no doubting the rising popularity of video games and that industry's sucdess. But it really isn't relevant to the industry that is the subject of this online community: D&D, and role-playing games in general.

You are mistaken. It is quite relevant.

You might be on track if you start with D&D and add what you mentioned, but starting with video game "RPGs" is wholly inaccurate.

I didn't start with video games. I merely included them as a form of RPGs.

It's not a matter of being misinformed on this subject; you are conflating too distinct entertainment media to pad your numbers to reach the assertion that "there are more people playing role-playing games now than ever before." You are in error that video games are role-playing games.

I eagerly await you backing that statement up, rather than repeating it many times over.

Since you understand the distinction, it is disingenuous for you to group them together to back your assertion.

Nope. There are video games that are RPGs. I stand on that statement.

And there are more people now playing RPGs than ever before.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Sorry Gary, but you're the father (or perhaps grandfather) of EverQuest, World of Warcraft, Lineage and all the rest. Even if you don't like the bawling brats you spawned.

Hey!

I never said I didn't like computer games. The fact is I find them far roo compelling, so that I want to play to the exclusion of work, reading, socializing, etc.


Gary

 

[molonel]

As I mentioned before, parsing words.

No more so than you.

When you say, "That is NOT a roleplaying game" and "This IS a roleplaying game" then you are defining terms.

I disagree with you, obviously. I have respected your opinion, though, rather than dismissing them as tricks of phrase.

One plays a role to an audience. In game form that mans at least a Game Master that responds in kind according to the words spoken. More generally the audience for such play includes one or more additional player participants. The time one spends preparing for play is immaterial to the game form. the game cam be wholly extemporaneous. Those are facts, not opinions. When MMPs have AI that is capable of raking over the role of the GM they will be actual RPGs. As thay stand they mosrt assuredly are not, as there is no Game Master or other audience to which to role-play, affect the course of the game bydoing so.

When a friend of mine designs adventures or quests onto his Neverwinter Nights server, he is most assuredly the GM. Everything that exists in that world is there because he put it there.

Dialogue is certainly more restricted.

But roles are being played before an audience.

There are certainly examples of tabletop RPGs which do not require a GM, like Mythic Game Master Emulator:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=7696

 

[Shadeydm]

World of Warcraft is a roleplaying game. It might not be the sort of game you prefer to play, but it's a roleplaying game. It sold 2.4 million copies worldwide during the first 24 hours after the release of its first expansion.
I am not misinformed on this subject. You are in error.

I spent many many hours playing WoW and I can assure you despite what they print on the side of the box it is most certainly not a role playing game. Some players do engage in a very limited form of role playing in game but nothing comparable to dnd or wod for that matter.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One plays a role to an audience. In game form that mans at least a Game Master that responds in kind according to the words spoken. More generally the audience for such play includes one or more additional player participants.

...

Those are facts, not opinions.

Well, my online "MM"ORPG experience goes back to the original Neverwinter Nights on AOL (unfortunately in its latter days), and my PnP RPG experience goes back a little farther.

In NWN, I joined a guild (the Servants of Mystery), and together, both in the game and outside of it, we roleplayed members of the Neverwinter temple to Mystra, Goddess of Magic. In truth, I got more into-character in the online venue than I ever did in my face-to-face roleplaying at the time, where, surprisingly enough, our encounters were largely similar: a break-in-the-door-and-fight-the-badguys style of playing which, I'm certain, just about everyone has indulged in from time to time.

While, in most cases, the monsters and other set encounters didn't treat us any differently than the gentlemen and ladies playing Cyricists or Banites or Purple Dragon Knights, the other players certainly did, and occasionally a staff gamemaster would take a more active role in the way things played out (taking on and roleplaying Lord Nasher, hosting events, joining a combat, etc.).

By the facts you laid out, it would seem that you would classify NWN as a roleplaying game during the time in which a gamemaster was actually present, and as a non-RPG when he or she [or they] wasn't [weren't]. So, NWN on AOL was, simultaneously, both an RPG and not an RPG?

The same situation (with, admittedly, prettier graphics and a more real-time resolution system) occurs in just about every modern MMORPG (where GM-lead events are often a major draw). Many people (especially those I play with) roleplay quite happily to the other players as the audience; what do you see as special about the need for a D/GM as part of the audience?

 

[molonel]

I spent many many hours playing WoW and I can assure you despite what they print on the side of the box it is most certainly not a role playing game. Some players do engage in a very limited form of role playing in game but nothing comparable to dnd or wod for that matter.

But ultimately, what you're saying is that it is a roleplaying game, and some people do use it for roleplaying, but it's not LIKE D&D or WoD.

Some people just search and destroy. I get that part.

I've also been in D&D gaming groups, both many years ago, and recently, where DMs marched stuff out of the Monster Manual, and we killed it.

The distinctions being made here are just not as clear cut as some folks are asserting.