Computers beat up my role player

[Nikosandros]

The fact that with the 9d6 stat gen system, you are almost guaranteed 3 18's. Certainly, your prime stats should be above 16.
Finally! I can play a paladin!

Just kidding... sort of. This seems like a good rolling mechanism for gestalt campaigns.

To elaborate on my previous post, the chance of getting 3 18's is about 0.2%...

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Hi Dromdol,

Actually, I believe you missed the key part of the definition, and I will restate it here.

In the RPG there is a Game Master that perpares and operates the environment, ajudicates the participation of the players, alters the environment according to the players' characters actions within it, and actively responds to player role-playing by reol-playing all sentient entities encountered in the course of play. The participant Game Master is also able to answer questions and assess and ajudicate actions not anticipated in the game rules or the prepared scenario. This means that all participants can extemporaneously intersct and use innovation within an ever-mutable milieu.

Now it seems to me that WoW and Warcraft III have the lion's share of the MMO market, and neither comes close to standards required for an RPG.

Cheers,
Gary

 

[Numion]

Hi Dromdol,

Actually, I believe you missed the key part of the definition, and I will restate it here.

In the RPG there is a Game Master that perpares and operates the environment, ajudicates the participation of the players, alters the environment according to the players' characters actions within it, and actively responds to player role-playing by reol-playing all sentient entities encountered in the course of play. The participant Game Master is also able to answer questions and assess and ajudicate actions not anticipated in the game rules or the prepared scenario. This means that all participants can extemporaneously intersct and use innovation within an ever-mutable milieu.

Now it seems to me that WoW and Warcraft III have the lion's share of the MMO market, and neither comes close to standards required for an RPG.

Warcraft III is a real-time strategy game, so no arguments there. WoW doesn't match your definition either, but comes closer. Then again, some mind find your definition of an RPG a bit strict. And still some computer games qualify, didn't Neverwinter have possibility for DMs?

 

[EightBitAssassin]

I would say that MMOs such as WoW could be better described as RPG Simulators. They embody most of the mechanical and thematic elements of traditional RPGs but are too limited in scope and content to be defined as an actual RPG. Some video games emulate RPGs better than others, but in the end it's not at all the same experience.

It all comes down to how much control the GM and players have over the game. Time is an obvious issue here. The GM can pause or fast forward time to skip over unnecessary elements or even go back in time and roleplay a flashback scene.

Improvisation is another issue. In an MMO you cannot be rewarded for having a clever idea. You cannot try anything that is not strictly defined within the boundaries of the game's interface. You can't really do anything but run around, find quests from two dimensional NPCs and grind through repetitive encounters trying to level up. If that's how your D&D sessions are thats fine but theres a lot more potential to roleplaying that your missing out on.

Tabletop RPGs are more than pizza and cheetos. Their more than magic items and skill points and what level you are. RPGs are about having fun with friends, telling a story and being able to look back on the game as something memorable.

I like MMORPGs and all dont get me wrong! As far as video games go their some of the best! But until they find a way to add in even a hint of the level of depth that a tabletop RPG encompasses I consider MMORPGs to stand for "Mundane Mechanical Online Restrictive Paradigm Generators."

 

[Dromdol]

I would say that MMOs such as WoW could be better described as RPG Simulators.

Or maybe both RPGs and MMORPGs are reality simulators? Aren't both attempting to allow you to project yourself into a fantastic world with interactivity?

You can't really do anything but run around, find quests from two dimensional NPCs and grind through repetitive encounters trying to level up. If that's how your D&D sessions are thats fine but theres a lot more potential to roleplaying that your missing out on.

Did you read my post above? I don't know your experience in an MMO, I can't comment on that, but I know my own experience. I've interacted with dozens, even hundreds, of fellow players to achieve goals. I've run afoul of powerful alliances that were capable of reacting to me in a very real fashion. Hardcore PvP isn't for everyone, but deriding MMOs as two-dimensional and repetitive grinds is dismissing a huge portion of the player base that participates in PvP activities - activities with actors and audiences, with real consequences, and with as much emotional reality and depth as the very real players on the other side of those avatars.

RPGs are about having fun with friends, telling a story and being able to look back on the game as something memorable.

So when I'm on vent doing a castle siege with fifty or sixty guildmates, coordinating and captaining divisions of players into their roles, receiving and transitting orders, living, dying, fighting, and thinking on an imagined battlefield with friends, enemies, passing acquaintances, allies, and traitors alike, I'm not having fun with my friends, I'm not seeing a good story, and I'm not developing a memorable experience? I beg to differ.

I've been in tabletop games that were little more than hack'n'slash fests with no depth. How many old 1st ed. modules were little more than a series of traps and beasties with a bare semblance of a plot, excusing rampaging dungeoneering and not much else? I know those were some of my first experiences with roleplaying thirty years ago. If they were "roleplaying" then how is an MMO any different? Some of those were immensely fun, for certain, but they had no more (if as much) depth as a good MMORPG.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

I would say that MMOs such as WoW could be better described as RPG Simulators. They embody most of the mechanical and thematic elements of traditional RPGs but are too limited in scope and content to be defined as an actual RPG. Some video games emulate RPGs better than others, but in the end it's not at all the same experience.

It all comes down to how much control the GM and players have over the game. Time is an obvious issue here. The GM can pause or fast forward time to skip over unnecessary elements or even go back in time and roleplay a flashback scene.

Improvisation is another issue. In an MMO you cannot be rewarded for having a clever idea. You cannot try anything that is not strictly defined within the boundaries of the game's interface. You can't really do anything but run around, find quests from two dimensional NPCs and grind through repetitive encounters trying to level up. If that's how your D&D sessions are thats fine but theres a lot more potential to roleplaying that your missing out on.

Tabletop RPGs are more than pizza and cheetos. Their more than magic items and skill points and what level you are. RPGs are about having fun with friends, telling a story and being able to look back on the game as something memorable.

I like MMORPGs and all dont get me wrong! As far as video games go their some of the best! But until they find a way to add in even a hint of the level of depth that a tabletop RPG encompasses I consider MMORPGs to stand for "Mundane Mechanical Online Restrictive Paradigm Generators."

Hear, hear!

I couldn't have said it better if I spent a lot of time and effort attempting it!

Ciao,
Gary

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hear, hear!

I couldn't have said it better if I spent a lot of time and effort attempting it!

Ciao,
Gary

Might I say that I agree as well?

RC

 

[Doug McCrae]

Let's posit an MMO where all sentient beings are actually player characters, with only animals, golems and similar sorts of entities controlled by the computer. The environment can change from time to time due to player action for example houses can be built or dungeons opened that were previously closed. The game has a good physics engine so objects can be moved around and damaged, PCs can jump and swim and fall off high objects and ride horses.

A game like this would be quite feasible, in fact it might already exist. Is it a roleplaying game? Does there have to be a human GM adjudicating every action in order for it to be a rpg and, if so, why?

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Speaking of wasting time, the attempts to rationalize non-RPGs, "computor RPG simulators," as something they are not, is that as far as I am concerned...bootless.

Oddly enough, when I have been interviewed by major computer publications and mention that computer and MMO games are not actually role-playing at all I have gotten agreement, nary a hint of frantic disputatiion.

That ends my say on this matter.

Cheerio,
Gary

 

[Doug McCrae]

IME most people refer to them as MMO's, rather than MMORPG's. It's more accurate to me anyway.

A Google search for MMO gives 15,800,000 hits. For MMORPG it's 29,700,000.