Computers beat up my role player

[Xyxox]

I have to say, the arguments related to Monopoly being an RPG is convincing me that Video games can be RPGs, too. the way I've always played Monopoly was to take the role of a busnessman, forming deals and even going so far as to write up contractual agreements (usually on a $1 bill of monopoly money). Since I can see monopoly being considered an RPG, I'm going to ahve to change my mind and consider WoW an RPG, too.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'm fine with this set of definitions in principle, except that I think that your definition A doesn't actually define the term it seeks to define. I believe that the meaning of the term RPG as it relates to "pen and paper RPGs" is large enough to include other forms. For example, D&D played over a server is still D&D. Eventually, if computer technology continues to improve, I imagine that there will be an RPG that meets both A and B.


RC

Well, yes, D&D played over a server, whether via some kind of electronic utility or just a play-by-post game, is counted under my first definition. Or at least, it would, if I wasn't too lazy to write a rigorous definition. They are games played with a DM and a group of players, using written down stats, etc.

I am not as certain as you about there eventually being an RPG that meets both A and B, unless you count Neverwinter Nights, or incredibly advanced AI Dungeon Masters get created, or RPG support tools get so advanced that a person can single-handedly create a game with the complexity of a modern videogame RPG. Honestly, I am not as optimistic as many about the development of technologies like those, and the Neverwinter Nights thing is debatable.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I am not as certain as you about there eventually being an RPG that meets both A and B, unless you count Neverwinter Nights, or incredibly advanced AI Dungeon Masters get created, or RPG support tools get so advanced that a person can single-handedly create a game with the complexity of a modern videogame RPG. Honestly, I am not as optimistic as many about the development of technologies like those, and the Neverwinter Nights thing is debatable.

I never meant to imply certainty. I, for one, believe that we have the whole AI thing ass-backwards. I think we should begin by trying to cultivate some form of "emotional intelligence" first, and then layer reasoning on top of that. However, if we could at some point create such a beast, and it didn't perform one of 1001 science fiction scenarios that see humans enslaved or eliminated , then I could imagine that a game meeting both definitions could quite easily come about. If Roger Penrose is right about the nature of the mind, quantum computers (if we ever were able to make them!) might well be a step in the right direction.

I could even imagine, in some Star-Trek-like future, that tabletop games would cease to be considered true RPGs simply because they don't allow you the breadth of role-assumption and choice that the holodeck does.

As an aside, I found myself wondering yesterday how closely Second Life would adhere to my definition of a RPG, with the participants en masse acting like a DM surrogate.....And how I would feel about a fantasy game that modelled Second Life's ability to permanently change the enviroment and own the fruits of your labour.

It might be true that the capacity for a computer RPG, even meeting my criteria, exists right now, even if it hasn't been fully exploited yet. I think that the first group to put together a cRPG-type game in which, when you slay the dragon, the dragon stays slain, and in which real commerce can occur, and which follows something along the lines of the Second Life business model, that group is going to make a lot of money indeed.

RC

 

[Kem]

I propose that CRPGs have no restrictions.

Just fewer rules and no DM ONHAND to ad-hoc it.

Same as a DM who only allows exactly what is in the rule book.

 

[Hussar]

*snip*

Is Madden Football real football? If not why not?


RC

RC, you neatly ducked my comment without dealing with it, so let's try again.

Is Madden real football? No of course not. We'll all agree to that. It is a simulation of a football game.

Is playing Dungeons and Dragons really living in a fantasy world? No, (certain movies aside) of course not. We'll all (I hope) agree to that. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Is playing Baldur's Gate really playing Dungeons and Dragons? No, of course not. There are any number of differences, despite BG using a number of rules from D&D. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

What BG is not is a simulation of playing D&D. No CRPG is a simulation of playing D&D. They are all simulations of living in a fantasy world.

One does not need to simulate playing an TRPG in order to play an RPG. Tabletop RPG's do not have some sort of monopoly on role play. One can role play in a rather large number of ways. Just as flicking a paper ball is a simulation of playing football, it is also not a simulation of playing Madden Football. However, a to be a simulation of playing football does not require simulating playing Madden Football.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Is Madden real football? No of course not. We'll all agree to that. It is a simulation of a football game.

Is A really B? No, A is a simulation of B. Got it so far.

Is playing Dungeons and Dragons really living in a fantasy world? No, (certain movies aside) of course not. We'll all (I hope) agree to that. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Is A really B? No, A is a simulation of B. Got it so far.

Is playing Baldur's Gate really playing Dungeons and Dragons? No, of course not. There are any number of differences, despite BG using a number of rules from D&D. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Is A really B? No, A is a simulation of C.

How does that follow? Properly, A is a simulation of B, which is itself a simulation of C.

It isn't that I "neatly ducked your comment" but that we have been down this road all too often. You're claim that Baldur's Gate is not a simulation of playing D&D (although, if memory serves, it certainly suggests that it is on the package! ) requires that I accept it as a given, as it is not backed up by any reasoning or evidence, and I do not accept it as a given. Especially as, if I do so, I must accept that "simulation" means something different for role-playing games than it means for everything else.

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC

 

[Hussar]

Umm, 'scuse me?

A TRPG is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.
A CRPG is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Where's the C?

In what way is playing Baldur's Gate simulating playing D&D? It is simulating adventuring in Forgotten Realms as the spawn of Bhall. It borrows rules from D&D, sure, but, it isn't simulating playing a TRPG. Again, unless your box of Baldur's Gate included arguing with your DM or the smell of Cheetos, how is it simulating playing a TRPG?

 

[Raven Crowking]

In what way is playing Baldur's Gate simulating playing D&D?

What made you ask, "Is playing Baldur's Gate really playing Dungeons and Dragons?"

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC

 

[Hussar]

What made you ask, "Is playing Baldur's Gate really playing Dungeons and Dragons?"

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC

Where's the C?

Playing BG is not really playing D&D. It's not even simulating playing D&D. It's simulating the same thing as D&D - acting within a fantasy world.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Where's the C?

Playing BG is not really playing D&D. It's not even simulating playing D&D. It's simulating the same thing as D&D - acting within a fantasy world.

Hopefully this will make it clearer, because if not I cannot imagine anything that would:

Is Madden real football? No of course not. We'll all agree to that. It is a simulation of a football game.

Is X really Y? No, X is a simulation of Y. Got it so far.

Is playing Dungeons and Dragons really living in a fantasy world? No, (certain movies aside) of course not. We'll all (I hope) agree to that. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Is B really C? No, B is a simulation of C. Got it so far.

Is playing Baldur's Gate really playing Dungeons and Dragons? No, of course not. There are any number of differences, despite BG using a number of rules from D&D. It is a simulation of living in a fantasy world.

Is A really B? No, A is a simulation of C.

How does that follow? Properly, A is a simulation of B, which is itself a simulation of C.

You ask first: Is A really B?

You then state that A is not B, a conclusion that I agree with, BTW.

You then state that A is not a simulation of B, but rather a simulation of C, a positon that not only comes out of the blue, but breaks with the analogy to Madden Football and D&D that you previously supplied. There is no logical connection to what came before, excepting that you ask if A is B, and based upon the conclusion that B is a simulation of C, if one follows the analogy given, if A is a simulation of B, and B a simulation of C, then by extension A is also a simulation of C.

It isn't that I "neatly ducked your comment" but that we have been down this road all too often. You're claim that Baldur's Gate is not a simulation of playing D&D (although, if memory serves, it certainly suggests that it is on the package! ) requires that I accept it as a given, as it is not backed up by any reasoning or evidence, and I do not accept it as a given. Especially as, if I do so, I must accept that "simulation" means something different for role-playing games than it means for everything else.

If that doesn't make the problem with your analogy clear enough, nothing that I (or, I suspect, anyone) says ever will.

Unless a new (i.e., not already dealt with in the course of this conversation) argument is forthcoming, I suggest that we agree to disagree.

RC