Computers beat up my role player

[Shadeydm]

But an RPG itself is just a simulation, so its different. Unless you think people playing Final Fantasy are playing a simulation of a simulation! But, no, a simulation of D&D would be playing a game where you control a player who then controls a PC. That would be a simulation of D&D. What's going on is not pretending to be pretending. In SWSE I pretend to be Roland the Jedi. In KOTOR I pretend to be Roland the Jedi. In neither case am I pretending to be playing a game in which I'm pretending to be Roland the Jedi.

Ok so lets call John Madden Football an RPG too right after all Im pretending to be Tom Brady and company right? Even better next time I'm out of town on business and call the wife for some adult converstion there can and usually is role playing going on so lets call the telephone an RPG too. Sorry there are limits. I have played WoW extensivly 100+ hours since its release and it really isn't an RPG nor have I seen a convincing argument presented to the contrary. You cannot meaningfully affect the game world in WoW nothing you break, burn, slay, etc. stays that way it all respawns and resets sometimes in mere minutes. When is the time this happened to you while playing DnD or Vampire?

 

[Galieo]

So do you think those images on a screen provide a more vivid depiction of an imaginary world?

I always think of my settings as made of out of words/text (seeing as they are). Therefore words are the ideal tools to bring them to life.

Nope, I think the exact opposite. The gap between the verbal description of the tabletop DM and the player is filled by the player's imagination; whereas, no such gap* exists in the computer game and therefore the player's imagination is not employed in that fashion.

I am not saying imagination is not or cannot be employed in a computer game, just that a key opportunity (i.e., envisioning the scene) is not in play.

* Edit: Nethack provides an interesting, potential exception; I am speaking about games that visually are intended to define the situation (e.g., NWN, NWN2, etc.).

 

[Galieo]

What makes Justice Stewart an expert on roleplaying games? How does he regocnize true RPGs?

LOL, I think we need a "Speak with Dead" spell to find out, as he is somewhat . . . er . . . stiff at the moment. Ouch, that even hurt me.

 

[ThirdWizard]

You cannot meaningfully affect the game world in WoW nothing you break, burn, slay, etc. stays that way it all respawns and resets sometimes in mere minutes. When is the time this happened to you while playing DnD or Vampire?

I reject the noting that you need these things to have an RPG and I don't see how they are intrinsically tied to the definition of a roleplaying game. I haven't noticed one compelling argument why they are needed for an RPG. It's a circular definition.

 

[Shadeydm]

I reject the noting that you need these things to have an RPG and I don't see how they are intrinsically tied to the definition of a roleplaying game. I haven't noticed one compelling argument why they are needed for an RPG. It's a circular definition.

Ok so if your ready call my cell phone and John Madden Football an RPG then I am willing to buy the notion that WoW is one as well they all bring about as much to the discussion.

 

[RFisher]

While I have never played NWN, from what I know of it, I think it's a bit different. I see something of a continuum.

• Playing a TRPG in person
• Playing a TRPG via WebRPG (or otherwise using the computer as little more than a communication channel for playing essentially the same game you would if you were around a table together)
• NWN with a DM (I might also place some of the MUSHes & MOOs I've participated in about here)
• MMORPGs
• More traditional CRPGs & IF

I'm not going to say that any of them are in any way superior to others. Except maybe to say that I prefer the ends more than the middle. (Although I also really enjoyed the MUSHes & MOOs.)

Players meta-game skills (for ex the ability to position miniatures in PnP D&D or the ability to punch mouse in CRPGs) is separate from the games inner reality, which is the more important divider to true RPGs and what some would call RPG simulators.

Just so that I can understand your point better, can you give a PnP example other than miniatures. Because I don't tend to use miniatures.

1. Visual representation--the computer game is the complete definition of the setting, actors, etc.; while the tabletop game does not provide such a defined experience. This may explain some posters discomfort with miniatures and the like, in the sense that the visual aids "limit" their imagination.

No matter how descriptive the tabletop DM is, there will always be a gap between the verbal description and the mental image that player has. Such a gap, and the opportunity to fill it, does not occur in a computer game.

But then, what about IF or MUDs?

If you cracked open the RAW of any edition, and only allowed actions to be resolved by the RAW, and only allowed actions that were specifically contained in the RAW, you would have a good simulation of a computer game.

Having revisited it during roughly the last year, I was surprised by how good a CRPG I thought you could make simply by implementing nigh verbatim the 1981 Basic & Expert sets. It would be different from the game my group & I played last year in some vital ways, though.

I think it would be more accurate to say that I don't understand why the difference MATTERS, aside from pedantry, semantic debate, and a smug sense of superiority calling electronic games "not true RPG's."

Just to be clear, I do not believe my use of the term "role-playing game" is in anyway superior to anyone else's. I merely expressed what I generally mean when I use the term unqualified.

There's a difference, absolutely. The person doing the adjudicating in D&D is a guy at the table while you play. The person doing the adjudicating in Final Fantasy is a team of programmers in Japan, years before.

FWIW, I always wince when I see the word "programmers" in this thread. Because there are so many people who sink so much into making a good CRPG. Writers, rule designers, artists, producers, &c. In fact, some writers & designers have been successful in both the TRPG & CRPG worlds.

But then, I'm sure we all realize that. When we say "programmers" we really mean all those people. I just kind of felt it was worth acknowledging.

In any case: Yes. This is the difference.

And there is the potential for the TRPG GM to do the job worse than a CRPG. There's also the potential for the CRPG team to do the job better than many TRPG GMs. No doubt about that.

That difference doesn't really matter to anyone. They're both RPG's. They have been known as such for almost equally as long (Final Fantasy just a few years later, or Dragon Warrior even before that).

The difference matters to me. In fact it is crucial. It is why I go out of my way to take time away from my family & my faith to play TRPGs yet I've never taken the time to finish Final Fantasy X. & finishing FFX would be a lot easier since it would not involve co-ordinating the schedules of 4 to 5 adults.

I want to understand the difference because I believe it can only help me improve my TRPG experience. (& maybe even my CRPG experience.)

It's like saying graphic novels aren't really comic books, or that anime isn't really cartoons.

Heh! (^_^) Yeah, I've known people who will fight those arguments vehemenently.

P.S. It's too bad Dave Arneson doesn't participate in online fora as Gary does. I think he'd have some possibly unique insights to bring to this discussion.

 

[Shadeydm]

Slight derailment

I love the Heat Miser avatar Galieo... pure awsome!

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[Doug McCrae]

You cannot meaningfully affect the game world in WoW nothing you break, burn, slay, etc. stays that way it all respawns and resets sometimes in mere minutes. When is the time this happened to you while playing DnD or Vampire?

I could easily create a D&D setting where, for weird magical reasons, monsters self-resurrect, and run a game based in that setting. Are you saying that I wouldn't be running a roleplaying game? In fact coming back from the dead with regularity is a distinctive feature of D&D compared to rpgs, something the game has always had in common with video games.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There's a difference, absolutely. The person doing the adjudicating in D&D is a guy at the table while you play. The person doing the adjudicating in Final Fantasy is a team of programmers in Japan, years before.

It's a bit different. I see the programming (or development) team as being analogous to the creaters of a tabletop rpg's rules - they're like the Wizards of the Coast game designers/developers. They created the rules of the game. With tabletop games there's an additional layer interpreting player actions - the DM - who can override the rules.

 

[Galieo]

But then, what about IF or MUDs?

Fair enough--Numion raised the point of Nethack and I agree that point deserves consideration. I slightly revised my response to footnote it above and I'm happy to add IFs or MUDs where the visual representation is not intended to define the situation. I do think that much of the conversation has revolved around WoW and the visually explicit.

I have not MUD'ed or IF'ed, so I will ask, do players generally interact through an imaginary filter? Are the lines (e.g., "l" or "-") mentally redrawn by the player as mud-caked passages, rough-hewn rock walls, or the like? If so, that is a strong knock against my point. Numion's example was that s/he did not see the character as an "@," but rather the character.

I suspect that it is the rare player who uses the imaginary filter in a computer game, but I could be wrong.

Slight derailment

I love the Heat Miser avatar Galieo... pure awsome!

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Thanks--it is a happy childhood memory. I'm partial to it and it does help lighten the mood.