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Concentration; Combat Techniques [Simple Version added]

Stalker0

Legend
Hmmm, in that context it may not be overpowered in some circles. My comments assumed a free action, which is very powerful.

As a standard action its not too bad in most cases. I'm giving up the attacks and damage this round to obtain more benefit on the next round. Considering that, I think it would be okay to allow the bonus to apply to all attacks made on the following round.

But, the problem at low levels is still there. A low level character doesn't care that they only get 1 attack per round. You will take any kind of bonus they can get. The thing you have to consider is that based on core only spellcasters and monks get concentration as a class skill. However, there are many ways to get it as class skill, multiclassing, cosmopolitan feat, dm allowance, etc. You want to ensure its balanced no matter who could take it.

So the scale does need to change, but in a different way they I orginally proposed. For example, how about Base DC = 15, with +2 per bonus. So a +1 to attacks would be DC 17. At 1st level, let's go with our standard +6. That means he's only getting a +1 slightly less than half the time, which is fine for the investment in skill points. The maximum he can do is a 26, which is a +5. That's a lot.

I would throw in a condition that says you can't get a bonus higher than half your ranks in concentration. So, the best a monk at 1st level can do is get a +2. For low levels, that's perfectly reasonable. And from a monk's perspective, he's giving up flurry of blows in order to potentially get a bonus. But it could net him a +4 overall (+2 from the skill, +2 for not flurrying) which is again a hefty bonus at low levels.

Looking back at a midrange perspective lets take a look at 10th level. We have a monk with 18 wisdom, max concentration for a +17. His max bonus is +6, due to the half ranks rule. On average he will recieve that max of +6, with a minimum of +1. But he did give up all his attack from the last round, and spent a number of points in concentration. I think that's not too bad.

Now a 10th level fighter with cosmopolitan or some other means of getting concentration. We will say its also +17, lowering wisdom but might have a skill focus or something in there. On average that's +6 to attacks, which translates to +12 with Power Attack. Pretty good, but again his minimum is a +1, its a gamble, especially when you give up the powerful blows of a fighter for the chance. I don't think that's too bad either.


Taken to the extreme, 20th level monk with 30 wisdom and max concentration. His bonus is +33. His maximum possible bonus is a +12 due to ranks. At such a level, I don't such a bonus is out of the question, especially since many players will have insight bonus through some manner.
 
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Siberys

Adventurer
I like the ideas. So let's see;

Base DC upped to 15
half-ranks rule

and, maybe;

Who gets it as a class skill

Any can take it as a CC skill, but, using this variant, Bbn, Ftr, and Rog should all get Concentration as a class skill (something I already do in my games, so it's not much of a change for me).

anyway, on the feats idea of mine - I'm eager to make some, though I recognize we should balance out the base first. But, to give an example of what I'm thinking of, here's Resilient Tactics

Note: I'm calling the bonuses that add two to the DCs "First Tier", and those that add four "second Tier" for the sake of brevity. Also, Passive effects (like DR), should last until the end of your next turn.

Resilient Tactics
Prereqs: Nonstandard Tactics (Constitution), BAB+5
Benefit: Add this to your list of available Second Tier Tactics

Damage Reduction 1/Magic or B or P or S

Special:
A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Improved Resilient Tactics
Prereqs: Nonstandard Tactics (Constitution), Resilient Tactics, BAB +8
Benefit: When gaining DR, you may choose a bypassing type other than magic, based on Character Level

8 Silver or Cold Iron (or Byeshk, if using Eberron), or any two previous
12 Adamantine or One Alignment, or any two previous
16 Epic , or any two previous
20 ---, or any two previous

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Again, these are just off the top of my head, so if they need balancing, suggestions would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Siberys
 
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Siberys

Adventurer
Some more feats... And a bump

Concentration

Concentration is now based on Wisdom instead of Constitution.

Techniques

Techniques may not be used in conjunction with feats or abilities like Power Attack or Combat Expertise.

Base DC = 15

First Tier Abilities

+1 AC
+1 Attack Roll
OR
+1 Damage

Second Tier Abilities

+1 to Crit Range
OR
+1 to Crit Multiplier

Note: First Tier abilities increase the Base DC by +2. Second Tier abilities increase the Base DC by +4. The maximum bonus provided by a successful check is equal to 1/2 your ranks in Concentration. All bonuses provided by Techniques are Insight bonuses unless otherwise stated.

Multi-Round Techniques: Multi-Round Techniques can be made. For each round spent building up to a technique, the DC decreases by two. During those buildup rounds, you may perform no other action.

You may Move during a buildup if you make a DC 15 Concentration Check.

Note: If you are distracted while performing a technique, you must make a concentration check. See PHB p. 70

Action: Standard. Techniques may be made as part of a full attack, but you may only attack once if that is the case.

Try Again: No

Martial Lore (New Uses; see ToB)
Allows you to discern the technique being carried out by any combatant, if he is carrying out any. DC = 15 + (Number of Standard Actions the technique consumes)

Allows you to make an opposed check whenever someone tries to tumble through your threatened area, If you win the result, you can take AoOs as normal.

You can choose to use your ranks in Martial Lore instead of Sense Motive when making an opposed check when someone is attempting a Feint.

Mobile Tactician
Prerequisites: Concentration 8 ranks
Benefit: You may take a ten on Concentration Checks pertaining to techniques when attempting to move during a buildup.
Special: A Fighter may take this as a Fighter Bonus Feat

Tactical Focus
Prerequisite: Concentration 4 ranks
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all Concentration checks pertaining to techniques. Additionally, choose any benefit available when using the tactics function of Concentration. You gain an additional +1 bonus to the check when attempting a technique involving that benefit
Special: A Fighter may take this as a Fighter Bonus Feat. You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose another technique effect.

Nonstandard Tactics
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Concentration 5 ranks
Benefit: Choose one Ability Score. You may now use that score in place of Wisdom when making Concentration Checks relating to techniques.
Special: A Fighter may take this as a Fighter Bonus Feat

Tactical Fortitude
Prereqs: Nonstandard Tactics (Constitution), BAB+3
Benefit: Add this to your list of available First Tier Tactics

+1 bonus to Fortitude Saves

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Tactical Reflexes
Prereqs: Nonstandard Tactics (Dexterity), BAB+3
Benefit: Add this to your list of available First Tier Tactics

+1 bonus to Reflex Saves

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Tactical Will
Prereqs: BAB+3
Benefit: Add this to your list of available First Tier Tactics

+1 bonus to Will Saves

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Cobalt Tactics
Prereqs: BAB +3, Con 13
Benefit: Add this to your list of available Second Tier Tactics

One bonus Essentia

Special:
A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Psi-Tactics [Psionic]
Prereqs: BAB +3, PP pool of at least 1
Benefit: Add this to your list of available Second Tier Tactics

+1 PP

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Regenerative Tactics
Prereqs: BAB +3, Con 15
Benefit: Add this to your list of available Second Tier Tactics

Fast Healing 1

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Tactical Vigor
Prereqs: Con 13, BAB +3
Benefit: Add this to your list of available First Tier Tactics

2 Temporary Hit Points

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Tactical Recovery [Psionic]
Benefit: Add this to your list of available First Tier Tactics

Regain Psionic Focus as part of the Technique

Special: A Fighter may take this as a bonus feat

Also, an idea struck me. One could expand this to a full-on magic system, and then make a small number of classes devoted to using it in different ways - Four classes; Divine, Arcane, Sneak, and Warrior, which could each gain unique uses for this skill... hmmmm...

Cheers,
Siberys
 
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Land Outcast

Explorer
Mobile Tactician
Prerequisites: Concentration 8 ranks
Benefit: You may take a ten on Concentration Checks when attempting to move during a buildup.
Special: A Fighter may take this as a Fighter Bonus Feat
Please, reword this. As it stands, it allows anyone who moves during a buildup to take ten in -any- concentration check (I get the intent, but could use the rewording).

Nonstandard Tactics
Benefit: Choose one Ability Score. You may now use that score in place of Wisdom when making Concentration Checks relating to techniques.
Special: A Fighter may take this as a Fighter Bonus Feat
I'd throw in some heavy requiremens for this one, maybe make it Concentration 11 ranks, or so... (I don't think I like the idea of using Dex or Str for Concentration... the Wis "requirement" is why monks are so good at their techniques)

the rest are ok, they're basically the idea you had about expanding the bonus spectrum...
remember to add the *insight* tag to them...

-Merry Christmas :)
 

Siberys

Adventurer
Land Outcast said:
Please, reword this. As it stands, it allows anyone who moves during a buildup to take ten in -any- concentration check (I get the intent, but could use the rewording).

point taken. done.


I'd throw in some heavy requiremens for this one, maybe make it Concentration 11 ranks, or so... (I don't think I like the idea of using Dex or Str for Concentration... the Wis "requirement" is why monks are so good at their techniques)

It's only for Technique checks which aren't *that* great unless you focus on them. Perhaps Concentration 5 ranks, BAB +3? that way a first leveler can't take it, but the Save-enhancers still stand.

the rest are ok, they're basically the idea you had about expanding the bonus spectrum...
remember to add the *insight* tag to them...

-Merry Christmas :)

Yeah, I thought I remembered to do that...

Merry Christmas!
 

Siberys

Adventurer
Okay - on the Magic System idea I had... I'm thinking of using the modified Warrior and Expert generic classes (which would give different progressions for the skills), making four lists of abilities (tentatively named "Arcane", "Divine" Fighter", and "Expert"), and that you must choose one to focus on; minimum levels and feats to get them. I really like this system I have made/am making.

... Has this thread become an orgy of me stroking my own ego? I seem to talk about MY ideas a whole lot, even if it doesn't pertain to the immediate situation... :/

...Anyway, It would work pretty much as-is, just with more feats and abilities. And more class abilities for the generic classes, but that's given.
 

BRP2

First Post
I didn't read much passed post #14 but I think, if you would want things to be more difficult, I would make the DC depend on the level of the target... hardly thinking this through but:

10 + target's HD... maybe a size modifier too.

At Fighter5 with WIS12(+1) and 9 ranks in Concentration against a Rogue5.

Base DC = 15
Fighter's Modifier = +10

At Fighter5 with WIS12(+1) and 9 ranks in Concentration against a Rogue10

Base DC = 20
Fighter's Modifier = +10

I like most of the flavor and mechanics, but I think there is some clashing going on. They seem to be tactical themed, yet based on Wisdom. I'd say tactics involve Intelligence more so than Wisdom. Some of them seem to be "chi", or however you want to call it, based with which supports its WIS roots. It could also have a better name :p, Concentration is mage-y. I would make two skills if you were going to do the same to magic. Concentration to Magic and Combat Technique to Melee. Nice and simple.

I'd either split this into two skills, one with a tactical flavor and the other with a chi flavor(Monk-like) OR adjusting where exactly this prowess is coming from. Just in my opinion anyway.

EDIT: You must be sick of me already, but I've been thinking of your idea. You know the four "schools" to represent the 4 archetypes. I say expand on it. In all of these include vital feat-tries to represent the building certain class types.

Fighters get Combat Techniques, which are split between Combat Techniques (Offense) (everything else mentioned here) and Combat Techniques(Defense) (Martial Lore as you mentioned, in addition with AC boosting and defense maneuvers). Mage get Arcane Magic that is not split up into any groups, but they require feats to gain access to spells requiring them to be specialist in some type of way. I suppose you could do the same with Divine magic. Expert/Rogues I'm not sure, but I guess you would make a skill represent all of the "Expert/Rogue" classes, like Sneak(Sneak Attacks and perhaps stuff like Stun Attack, Death Attack, ect), Perform, and whatever you want to call what a Ranger does. Sorry, I'm just having a little fun here.
 
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