Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft

[Kerrick]

There's been some discussion on the PF forums about Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft. As you all may or may not know, they combined Concentration and Spellcraft into one skill. I thought it was a dumb idea (as did many other folks), but they're doing the Skills and Feats testing now, and the discussion got me thinking:

Why do we have three skills that cover spells and magic, two of which are pretty much must-haves for spellcasters? Does anyone ever use Concentration for skill checks?

So I thought this over last night and today at work, and came to the following conclusion: We only need two skills - Knowledge and Spellcraft. Knowledge (arcana) simulates book-learning; it covers identifying magic items/sigils/glyphs, reciting knowledge about magical creatures, draw magical diagrams, etc. Spellcraft, OTOH, is practical knowledge - you use it to identify a spell/magical aura/magical diagram, learn a spell, dispel/counter a spell*, penetrate SR*, etc.

*This is a variant rule I'm working on, where Spellcraft adds a bonus to caster level checks. I'm also considering changing the "make a check or lose the spell" check to 1d20+mods+bonus based on Spellcraft ranks; this makes it not always a given that the caster will make it.

Concentration is "ability to cast a spell under pressure" and "ability to maintain focus on a spell", but both the uses fall under Spellcraft, so it makes eminent sense to roll them together. Someone brought up psionics - it relies heavily on Concentration - but that would just as easily fall under Psicraft instead of Spellcraft. As far as skills are concerned, just increase the DC for the task depending on what's going on.

Thoughts?

 

[Hawken]

Why not just take from 4e and combine Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft into a single skill; Arcana?

As for Concentration, a house rule I recently started, is using Concentration to oppose other skills. It is also a class skill for all skills.
**It can be used to resist Intimidation instead of a character level check--skill vs. skill, rather than skill that results in a ridiculous DC that a level check cannot beat even with a 20.
**It can be used to contest a Bluff check to feint, also so its skill vs. skill (minus having to add in BAB).
**It can be used to contest a Diplomacy check rather than a fixed DC based on attitude that may or may not be too easy or hard irregardless of the situation or person involved.
**It can be used to oppose Sleight of Hand or Disguise rather than Spot or either could be used.
**It can be used as the skill to check when attempting Aid Another rather than making a skill check of whatever skill is being used. The character is concentrating on assisting, not in making the check.

 

[Kerrick]

Why not just take from 4e and combine Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft into a single skill; Arcana?

Mm... I'm not sure. Are you suggesting keeping Concentration and rolling the other two together? On the one hand, it would make sense, but on the other, they're two different areas (though relating to the same subject).

As for Concentration, a house rule I recently started, is using Concentration to oppose other skills. It is also a class skill for all skills.
**It can be used to resist Intimidation instead of a character level check--skill vs. skill, rather than skill that results in a ridiculous DC that a level check cannot beat even with a 20.
**It can be used to contest a Bluff check to feint, also so its skill vs. skill (minus having to add in BAB).
**It can be used to contest a Diplomacy check rather than a fixed DC based on attitude that may or may not be too easy or hard irregardless of the situation or person involved.

How does Concentration oppose Intimidation or Bluff? Does it represent the target's focus and inability to become distracted or driven off-course?

For the social skils (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate), I rolled them all into the same subsystem, Speechcraft. They're still separate skills that do different things, but they work off the Speechcraft system. I took the table for Diplomacy, adjusted the DCs, added a bunch of other stuff (including a cap on how far you can adjust someone's attitude with a single check), and then included effects for Bluff and Intimidate. I also did a similar system for Perform - someone who makes a fantastic performance should get some kind of bonus to interact with his audience, right?

**It can be used to oppose Sleight of Hand or Disguise rather than Spot or either could be used.

How does this one work?

**It can be used as the skill to check when attempting Aid Another rather than making a skill check of whatever skill is being used. The character is concentrating on assisting, not in making the check.

That I can see.

 

[Hawken]

Are you suggesting keeping Concentration and rolling the other two together?

Yes. The other two are different areas, but the subject is still the same; magical knowledge.

How does Concentration oppose Intimidation or Bluff? Does it represent the target's focus and inability to become distracted or driven off-course?

It opposes Intimidation/Bluff like whether someone flinches when a person pretends to throw a punch at someone. They either recognize the deception for what it is or not. It could be a matter of determination not to be swayed, focus on the surroundings--Concentration.

The other reason for this use of the skill is purely game mechanics. Skills checks should be just that; skills being checked either against a DC or another skill. Level checks and BABs shouldn't be involved since they cannot or do not scale at the same rate as skills and are outside the skill mechanic already.

someone who makes a fantastic performance should get some kind of bonus to interact with his audience, right?

That sounds something like a reputations; I think either SW d20 or SWSE has a mechanic for that. You should take a look. I think that handles what you are looking for with that.

How does this one work?

Sleight of Hand is based on misdirection not observation. Spot is not the right skill to oppose this to begin with. Think about the 3 card monty game. While the three cards are being shuffled, you're not not using Spot, you are, but its a question of whether your ability to concentrate and remain focused on which card the ace. If your Concentration is good enough, you remain focused and know which card is the ace or if the trickster tries to replace it with another card.

Same with pickpocketing. Your Spot skill sees the rogue bumping into you, but its your skill at Concentration that decides whether you are paying attention to the bump at your shoulder, or to the sudden lightness at your belt!

Disguise is much the same way. It is about deception, misdirection, assumption. You are already Spotting someone when you look at them. Its whether you are Concentrating enough on the smaller details--or the overall picture--to see through the deception aimed at making you assume you're seeing someone else.

 

[Kerrick]

Yes. The other two are different areas, but the subject is still the same; magical knowledge.

Yeah... if we combined them, monks would lose Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill, but I'm not entirely sure why they have it in the first place. The thing I'm worried about, really, is that combining them might result in one uber-skill - it would cover IDing anything magical (spells, magic items, items created by magic, learning spells, casting (epic) spells, magical creature lore, and probably a few other things I haven't thought of. That's quite a lot.

It opposes Intimidation/Bluff like whether someone flinches when a person pretends to throw a punch at someone. They either recognize the deception for what it is or not. It could be a matter of determination not to be swayed, focus on the surroundings--Concentration.

Sense Motive does that too. Not so much for Intimidation, though it could be done...

The other reason for this use of the skill is purely game mechanics. Skills checks should be just that; skills being checked either against a DC or another skill. Level checks and BABs shouldn't be involved since they cannot or do not scale at the same rate as skills and are outside the skill mechanic already.

Ah, but the Rule of 3 might help here too. Another benefit!

That sounds something like a reputations; I think either SW d20 or SWSE has a mechanic for that. You should take a look. I think that handles what you are looking for with that.

Something like that, yeah. I've already got that rule written up somewhere.

Sleight of Hand is based on misdirection not observation. Spot is not the right skill to oppose this to begin with. Think about the 3 card monty game. While the three cards are being shuffled, you're not not using Spot, you are, but its a question of whether your ability to concentrate and remain focused on which card the ace. If your Concentration is good enough, you remain focused and know which card is the ace or if the trickster tries to replace it with another card.

Good point. Concentration would work if you're actually watching, but Spot would be the skill to use if you're not - it represents the chance that you see the rogue slipping a mickey into someone's drink, or lifting a purse.

Disguise is much the same way. It is about deception, misdirection, assumption. You are already Spotting someone when you look at them. Its whether you are Concentrating enough on the smaller details--or the overall picture--to see through the deception aimed at making you assume you're seeing someone else.

That could go either way. Have you ever seen TV show The Mentalist? Great show; the guy is trained in psychology and observation - he can see little details and make accurate judgments based on his observations. I'd say he has a high Spot score, coupled with a high Intelligence (the ability to process the information he sees).

 

[Hawken]

Yeah... if we combined them, monks would lose Knowledge (arcana) as a class skill, but I'm not entirely sure why they have it in the first place. The thing I'm worried about, really, is that combining them might result in one uber-skill - it would cover IDing anything magical (spells, magic items, items created by magic, learning spells, casting (epic) spells, magical creature lore, and probably a few other things I haven't thought of. That's quite a lot.

I don't think Monks would have to lose it. I've been combining skills in my games for a long time (Hide + MS = Stealth, etc.). And one thing I've done is that if a class has one of the combined skills as a class skill, the new composite skill is also a class skill.

I don't think it really makes the skill too powerful combining it. Its already a large topic to begin with and I think it was broken into two skills for one to cover the knowledge aspect of the subject and the other to cover the application. However, that's like saying there should be a Knowledge (Hide) skill to cover knowing how to Hide and a separate Hide skill to cover actually doing it!

I believe Monks were given Knowledge Arcana on the premise that they were presented as keepers of mystic lore and knowledge. Secret libraries tucked safely away in the mountains somewhere with the monks as the guardians or keepers of that lore. Or something like that. Which also could be an explanation for their quasi-mystical powers.

Sense Motive does that too. Not so much for Intimidation, though it could be done...

True but few people are trained (class skill) in sensing motives. People from just about every profession are trained to pay attention to detail, focus on your work, concentrate on your objectives, etc. which seems to be a Concentrate thing to me. Plus, it also gives a reason for the concentrate skill to be used by a non-spellcaster and interesting reasons to use it for. A lot of novels talk about a warrior being able to concentrate or focus his resolve to such a point that he is capable of incredible things.

I see Sense Motive as kind of a social counter to social skills, that should require some kind of interaction, but Concentrate as a counter to mental trickery (feinting) or techniques (intimidating). Sense Motive seems to fit better when you can observe and interact, while Concentrate implies the ability to focus, be in the "now", and reacts with split-second timing which is required when someone is attempting to pick your pocket or mislead you in combat.

Ah, but the Rule of 3 might help here too. Another benefit!

True. However, it still doesn't change the fact that the WotC designers were taking an extra big hit on the crack pipe when they thought to add BAB into Bluff checks to feint and level based checks on Intimidate. I've got a character, level 10, in one of my games who is an Intimidate master, max ranks and all kinds of modifiers and feats, who routinely rolls Intimidate DCs in the 40s that no one else in the game can match even rolling a 20 because of the way the counter-check is designed.

I think BAB was thrown into the feint thing because Fighters don't get Bluff (or even Sense Motive) so they can't do an opposed roll just straight off the skill. But even still, short of a very high roll for the bluffee and a very low roll for the bluffer, BAB isn't going to make much of a difference, its still tilted way in favor of the bluffer.

That could go either way. Have you ever seen TV show The Mentalist? Great show; the guy is trained in psychology and observation - he can see little details and make accurate judgments based on his observations. I'd say he has a high Spot score, coupled with a high Intelligence (the ability to process the information he sees).

True, it could go either way. I've caught bits and pieces of Mentalist, so I know what you're referring to. I'd agree his Spot is good, but I'd say he's got a decent Concentrate skill too.

I'd argue more for Concentrate because Spot is useful for those that have it while allowing this application of it for Concentrate happens to benefit all the other classes that don't have Spot as a class skill. Also, these are specific uses of Concentrate, so characters aren't going to be substituting Concentrate for Spot all or even half the time.

 

[Kerrick]

I don't think Monks would have to lose it. I've been combining skills in my games for a long time (Hide + MS = Stealth, etc.). And one thing I've done is that if a class has one of the combined skills as a class skill, the new composite skill is also a class skill.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing too - it usually applies to monsters more than PCs.

I don't think it really makes the skill too powerful combining it. Its already a large topic to begin with and I think it was broken into two skills for one to cover the knowledge aspect of the subject and the other to cover the application. However, that's like saying there should be a Knowledge (Hide) skill to cover knowing how to Hide and a separate Hide skill to cover actually doing it!

I believe Monks were given Knowledge Arcana on the premise that they were presented as keepers of mystic lore and knowledge. Secret libraries tucked safely away in the mountains somewhere with the monks as the guardians or keepers of that lore. Or something like that. Which also could be an explanation for their quasi-mystical powers.

Yeah, probably. I revised monks to be less mystical, though, so dropping Knowledge (arcana) would make sense.

A lot of novels talk about a warrior being able to concentrate or focus his resolve to such a point that he is capable of incredible things.

That gave me a really interesting idea - combat focus. You can make a Concentration check as a move action to gain bonuses to a single attack (the DC determines the bonus). This would simulate the archer lining up the perfect shot, the assassin waiting for that exact moment to strike, or the fighter looking for the opening in his opponent's defense.

I see Sense Motive as kind of a social counter to social skills, that should require some kind of interaction, but Concentrate as a counter to mental trickery (feinting) or techniques (intimidating). Sense Motive seems to fit better when you can observe and interact, while Concentrate implies the ability to focus, be in the "now", and reacts with split-second timing which is required when someone is attempting to pick your pocket or mislead you in combat.

True. However, it still doesn't change the fact that the WotC designers were taking an extra big hit on the crack pipe when they thought to add BAB into Bluff checks to feint and level based checks on Intimidate. I've got a character, level 10, in one of my games who is an Intimidate master, max ranks and all kinds of modifiers and feats, who routinely rolls Intimidate DCs in the 40s that no one else in the game can match even rolling a 20 because of the way the counter-check is designed.

I think their thinking is that BAB = experience, and someone who's more experienced would be less likely to fall for a feint. As for level checks, it was a substitute for power - I guess they think that if you're more or less powerful than the other person (whether or not you know it), you're more or less susceptible to intimidation.

Hey, I never said it made sense...

I used to play in a Neverwinter Nights persistent world (an MMO, basically); NWN doesn't have Sense Motive, so we usually used Will saves vs. Intimidation. Obviously, the Intimidate check far exceeds the Will save, but I think this better simulates what happens, since Will saves cover fear-based effects (which is what intimidation is). Once again, Rule of 3 to the rescue! If we divide the Intimidate check by 3, it brings it well down into the range of a Will save (even your PC scoring 40+).

For Bluff... I dunno. You could extend combat focus over multiple rounds, representing the fighter in intense combat with his opponent (but he would be more susceptible to flanking attacks); he would then be watching his opponent more closely and get a bonus to avoid being fooled by a feint.

I'd argue more for Concentrate because Spot is useful for those that have it while allowing this application of it for Concentrate happens to benefit all the other classes that don't have Spot as a class skill. Also, these are specific uses of Concentrate, so characters aren't going to be substituting Concentrate for Spot all or even half the time.

It's kind of an even split between who gets Concentration and who gets Spot; I don't think anyone gets them both, and many classes get neither.

 

[Knight-of-Roses]

I can see wrapping Arcana and Spellcraft into the same skill, as they are magic in theory and magic in practice. But not convinced that Concentration needs to be folded in as well especially if you are making Concentration more generally useful.

While I can see a Monk or Rogue having Concentration, it does not follow that they should have vast knowledge of the arcane just because they know how to focus on a single task.

 

[Kerrick]

I was considering folding Concentration and Spellcraft together, and Hawken says that I should keep Concentration separate and roll the other two together. I'm in agreement with him (and you) - Concentration stays, and the other two will become Arcana.

 

[Kerrick]

Question: if we combine Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft, where do the knowledge checks about constructs, dragons, and magical beasts go? They're not spells or magic, so they don't really fall under Spellcraft, but they don't fit into any other Knowledge category either.