Confused about holy symbols

[BobTheNob]

A small confusion about holy symbols. Quoted from players

"...A cleric wearing or holding a magic holy symbol can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of cleric powers"

So a cleric can wear or hold. Why would they ever hold? (I mean ever)

This has me over a barrel because its like clerics have a "hidden" bonus in that where other classes are obligated to wield implements, clerics get this little joker in that they have there own little special slot for holy symbols.

I used the character builder to see what it would reveal in the topic, but it listed a symbol as an off hand weapon whilst allowing a specialized neck slot! But it gets worse, when I equipped the item by double clicking, it unequipped the shield he had! But I could manually (and legally) force it to equip both.

Confused as buggery and hoping someone has an official clarification they can link me to.

 

[Maleketh]

If a cleric loses his magic holy symbol and finds it on the ground somewhere, he can pick it up and use it without having to put it on. If he's in combat, this can save him a valuable action. Generally, there's not much point in holding a holy symbol when you can just wear it, but the option is there.

 

[fissionessence]

That sounds like more of an issue with the character builder not having a 'slot' for an unslotted item (the holy symbol).

Characters do not have to hold their holy symbols to 'wield' them (use them in an attack). A warforged paladin in a game I play in has his holy symbol in the form of his faceplate; very cool idea, IMO.

Why would they ever hold? (I mean ever)

For effect!

~ fissionessence

 

[mischa84]

every divine class can use holy symbols and holy symbols can come in an form of an hand item (like a standard) or some kind of cloth but:

1 i thought i read you can not make melee attacks with a holy symbol but why are there so many dragonborns with shields showing the sign of bahamut and the hammer itself is the sign of moradin
2 if you read the text at the start of the magic item description you will notice that clothing requires item slots and that means divine classes can use more weapons but arcane classed are meant to use every clothing item slot.
(and some arcane classes can use the staff which is two magic items in one: weapon and implement, i wanted to play eladrin with wand and longsword but i already got hold of a magic staff)

 

[Lord Ernie]

The only holy symbol I can think of wielding, personally, is a Holy Avenger.

Note, however that the cleric has powers that use both a weapon and a holy symbol, and that having to switch between the two all the time would be a rather painful procedure. Other implement classes like Wizards and Warlocks don't have this problem, and a Swordmage uses his sword as an implement.

 

[mischa84]

Bothe Weapon and Implement Keyword? I think not.

You don't have to switch if you have the weapon in your main hand and the holy symbol in your off hand, just like (eladrin) wizards with orbs and wands do. (Eladrin because they have a racial weapon profiency. Wizards without would always prefer the staff.)

Warlocks with Wands or Rods do the same until until thy can get a pact blade.

 

[cmbarona]

Bothe Weapon and Implement Keyword? I think not.

You would actually be right, because that's not what they were saying. Clerics have some powers that have a Weapon keyword and some with an Implement keyword. This keeps them from having to switch stuff out if they use a two-handed weapon or a versatile weapon in both hands. They have no need to wield it in their off hand, and thus no complex hand-switching problems.

 

[Kordeth]

So a cleric can wear or hold. Why would they ever hold? (I mean ever)

Because if they didn't put that phrasing in there some joker would come along and try to argue that clerics can't benefit from a holy symbol in their hand, only one around their neck. It's there for the sake of completeless.

This has me over a barrel because its like clerics have a "hidden" bonus in that where other classes are obligated to wield implements, clerics get this little joker in that they have there own little special slot for holy symbols.

Not quite. It's not a hidden bonus for the cleric, it's a property of holy symbols as implements. See PHB p. 236. It's there because most classes that use holy symbols are also, traditionally, users of weapon-and-shield or two-handed weapons. To require them to constantly switch out for their holy symbols would be unfairly punitive. Wizards and warlocks et al don't typically use both hands for fighting, so they don't need an implement they can wear.

I used the character builder to see what it would reveal in the topic, but it listed a symbol as an off hand weapon whilst allowing a specialized neck slot! But it gets worse, when I equipped the item by double clicking, it unequipped the shield he had! But I could manually (and legally) force it to equip both.

Don't use the character builder as a tool to clarify rules. It's a piece of software, and software has bugs. Use the PHB.

Confused as buggery and hoping someone has an official clarification they can link me to.

What needs to be clarified? There's nothing that contradicts the rule for holy symbols, and it's stated in multiple places. Unlike other implements, you can benefit from the properties and powers of a holy symbol if you're just wearing it, not wielding it i your hand.

 

[BobTheNob]

Don't use the character builder as a tool to clarify rules. It's a piece of software, and software has bugs. Use the PHB.

I would take point on that. Yes, it is software and they do have bugs (God I appreciate that...I do software for a living) but bugs aside, that little piece of software is very thorough and on more than one occasion I have been able to clarify points in my own mind by observing its behavior. I treat it with a grain of salt, but I wouldn't dismiss it flippantly because its early release has bugs.

In fact, I have to say well done to WOTC for such a engaging and thorough tool. Now, if only they could get everything else out on time...

 

[CapnZapp]

I agree with those who say the Character Builder is just an implementation, an interpretation, of the rules. It isn't authoratitive. For that, only the actual rules will do.

As for holy symbols, I've re-engineered daily usage limitations to key off item slots. Having holy symbols as slot-less (or its own slot) would be an inconvenience, so I've house-ruled that holy items use either the neck or one of the hand slots (where weapons and implements go, not the slot used by magic gloves).