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D&D 5E Considering "taking the 5th" (Edition); questions for those more experienced.

Well, and Cavalier, Marshal, Knight, Scout, Warblade, Ranger, Warlord, Thief, Slayer, Knight (again), & Berserker if we're being less traditional and allowing in things from post-Essentials, Essentials, 4e, 3.5, 3.0 Miniatures Handbook, and, er, 1e UA.

Cavalier is the one I was forgetting. Since he's coming from a 2e perspective, the others probably aren't particularly relevant. Neither are assassin and cavalier for that matter, but I didn't know what his perspective on 1e would be.
 

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Blackbird71

First Post
I've been quiet for a while, but I have been keeping up with the thread. There have been a lot of very useful responses with helpful opinions and information, and I have to thank everyone for all their contributions so far.

With some of the discussions, I suppose it might help if I clarified a bit of what I intend with my campaign world. I had hoped to keep things somewhat generic, but as has been pointed out, "rare magic" can have many different interpretations which can greatly affect the viability of certain concepts.

By "rare magic," my main intent is that arcane magic in general is very rare - wizards and the like are all but extinct in most of the world, with magic only being practiced in certain isolated locations or within secret societies. To the average inhabitant, even the existence of magic has almost faded into a myth or superstition; it is something feared and reviled by the common man, and so its few practitioners exist largely in hiding. Any magical objects encountered tend to be relics and artifacts of a bygone era, and they will be extremely rare.

I haven't yet entirely figured out the extent of divine magic in this campaign world. There will be a heavy religious presence, and there will be divine casters as a part of that (considered by the populace to work miracles as opposed to magic), I just haven't quite decided how common they will be. Certainly more frequent than arcane casters, but likely still a rare and memorable sight in the life of the average person.

My purpose in all of this is to try to restore some of the sense of wonder and power of magic that I feel our games have lost. The pitfall I have observed in many campaign settings over the years is that magic has become so commonplace that it is ordinary. No one bats an eye at a +3 flaming longsword, an amulet of protection, or boots of speed anymore, and a demon from the abyss can be just about as intimidating as the bandit king with a really big axe; they're both just one more obstacle to chuck some dice at. My hope is that if I present my players with a world in which magic is a rarity, and start them off with little to no interaction with this sort of magic but instead slowly introduce it over time in small doses, that magic will again feel like something special and unique within the game world.

I don't intend for there to be no casters among my players' characters by any means, as the PCs should themselves be unique in the world. But for practical reasons, even among a group of PCs there should be few magic users, as the more there are the more conspicuous they become, and the more likely they are to draw unwanted attention (of which there most definitely is the potential for within this world; "mage hunters" are very much a thing to be cautious of).

So this is the sort of world I am looking to fit a rules set to. Early on in my design, I was planning to use AD&D (mostly 2E, possibly with some 1E elements), but with what I've been hearing of 5th I am willing to consider giving it a try. Since I started this thread, I've ordered the starter set (should arrive in a few days), and I've managed to borrow a set of the core books to look through. I've only gone through a few bits of the PHB (mostly class descriptions) and some points in the DMG so far, and I have a long ways to go before I really grasp the rules as a whole, so my perspective at this point is limited and may be a bit skewed. Both in my readings of the rulebooks and online discussions such as this, I've seen a lot of good stuff in 5th that I like, but at the same time I've seen some potential problems. Some of these problems are things that I can alter or adjust if I'm willing to put the time and effort into it (both things which I tend to have in short supply, so it would have to be worth it to do so). Others are issues I have with fundamental mechanics which I would either have to learn to accept and deal with or move on to another system.

For an example of a mechanics issue, I was rather disappointed (but not at all surprised) to see that 5th still uses attribute modifiers. I've had a problem with these ever since 3.0, primarily because they emphasize the importance of even-value attributes and make odd attributes practically worthless. In older systems, each attribute value had a purpose and a distinction from those above and below it; a 15 STR was mechanically different from a 14. But when attributes are reduced to modifiers, for all the difference between attribute scores we may as well cut all attributes in half to use a 1-10 scale instead of 1-20, and roll d10s for our attacks and skill checks. Can I live with a system that uses attribute modifiers? I suppose; I have before. I just feel that it devalues half of the available attributes and promotes "gaming the system" in attribute selection (particularly if using a point-buy system).

Likewise, I'm not entirely fond of systems that include regularly increasing attributes, as it drives a continuing increase in power level, but also gives the feeling that at lower levels, characters are not that special or unique in the world as they have so far to grow. I prefer a system that gives the players the feeling that they can be great heroes even at 1st level, not that they have to "grow up" first. Can this be accomplished with an increasing attribute system? Certainly; it just doesn't seem to encourage it (at least from my perspective).

Again, I can probably live with these mechanics issues; I'm just not crazy about them and would have preferred something different. So the question is going to come down to whether the rest of the system offers enough to make it worthwhile. A lot of that will come down to what aspects I will need to modify in order to make it work. As some have pointed out, 5E does seem to lend itself well to modification, so it may still work out all right for what I need.

First, with regard to classes: The cleric and domains available in the PHB are far too limited in scope for what I had in mind, and will require the creation of several new domains at the very least. But I would have needed to do something similar for the cleric with just about any system I chose, so this shouldn't be a huge factor.

The ranger - where to begin? I'm tempted to try a complete rewrite of this one; I just don't know that I trust my abilities enough to come up with something that's well-balanced. Still, I look at the ranger as written and wonder if I could do any worse?

The more that I read of 5E bards, the more I realize how problematic bards as full casters would be within my campaign world. I'd only barely managed to figure a way to fit in bards who "dabble" in a bit of magic in addition to all else that they do (at one point I'd been considering a completely non-magic bard); having them as full casters may very well break my system entirely. I realize that the bard's range of spells is limited, but it is more a matter of how much of the class is now focused around magic, whether through spells or "performance magic". I would hate to have to cut bards out entirely, as I do have a role in the world I would like them to fill, but I don't think that they will work as is, and would require a significant rework.

Multiclassing - I have never been crazy about 3E style multiclassing, where characters pick and choose classes at each level. Fortunately, I've already found a few hacks out there for using AD&D style multiclassing with 5th, so this isn't a huge hurdle to overcome. I may also implement a dual-class option, basically using the 5E multiclass rules but with a few additional penalties and requirements.

I realize this post probably comes off as mostly negative towards 5E, but there is actually a lot that I really like about the system. That's why it is becoming so difficult for me to decide what system to run. I'm appreciative of a lot of the simplification, such as the reduction in feats. I love the world-building tools in the DMG! Ritual casting is something I've always wanted to see; it always bothered me that given enough time a wizard couldn't just cast a spell from his book just because it was one he hadn't prepared the day before. There are several other parts I like, and I'm sure I'll find even more as I delve deeper into the system. In the end I think it will be a question of whether I want to modify enough of the parts that don't work for me, or if I just decide to run a 2E game with some 5E elements tacked on.

Although, there was one moment when I almost tossed out the idea of 5th entirely.* It was when I opened the race section to see what had been done with elves, only to be met with the image of the thrice-cursed Drizzt Do'overdone! I just about threw the book across the room (didn't, because it was borrowed). Seriously, that's the image representing the entire elven race? Couldn't they have at least moved him to the page discussing drow? Ugh!:p

*I'm kidding... mostly.
 

What I'm seeing you say...

1. Your general description of what you want to do with your campaign world would work better with 5e than with any other edition of D&D ever.
2. Criticism of specific elements of the game that were found in every other edition of D&D ever.
3. Theorizing about modifications that you would need to make that would be just as difficult (or more so) in any other edition of D&D (with exceptions in certain instances for AD&D).

If it were me I'd be sold on 5e.

Did I miss anything?
 

Blackbird71

First Post
What I'm seeing you say...

1. Your general description of what you want to do with your campaign world would work better with 5e than with any other edition of D&D ever.

Possibly; that's what I'm trying to determine. The way that magic has become more pervasive within some of the classes makes me question it, but the modular nature of the game may make for better support (if more effort on my part to fill in the missing pieces).

2. Criticism of specific elements of the game that were found in every other edition of D&D ever.

I don't seem to recall ability modifiers or leveling of ability scores being in any edition prior to 3.0, so no, it's just criticism of elements from more recent editions.

3. Theorizing about modifications that you would need to make that would be just as difficult (or more so) in any other edition of D&D (with exceptions in certain instances for AD&D).

The jury is still out on whether it would be as/more difficult in other editions; so far I see more modifications that would have to be made to 5E than with 2E. It's just a question of whether what remains after those modifications makes the effort worthwhile. The purpose in the theorizing is an attempt to evaluate the extent of that effort.

If it were me I'd be sold on 5e.

I guess I'm a harder sell. I'm definitely still considering it, and as I said, I've got more to learn before making a decision. I've seen enough that I really want to like 5E, but at the same time I see a lot of problems that would come from using it as well. There are definitely a lot of problems from previous editions which it solves nicely. 5E does appear to be a good system, I'm just uncertain whether it is the right system for what I'm trying to do.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
I'm not sure how ability modifiers where different in AD&D. I seem to recall there was the same "odd ability modifier" problem there, it was just that there was a smaller range until you got to the 18 xx/100 system. But that was only for strength. There is no doubt that ability modifiers and the ability to increase them are a bigger deal in 5e than in AD&D, but that is taken into account here, it is part of how your character increases in power. In AD&D you just looked for those gauntlets of Ogre Power or Girdle of Giant Strength. It is expected that you will seek to increase you abilities as you have a choice between that and feats (feats are optional in this edition). Fortunately, the increase comes in the form of +2, so you don't have to worry overmuch about the 'odd ability score' problem. There are some feats that grant a +1 ability score in addition to another benefit, so there is that. Lastly on abilities, you may have missed that scores cap at 20 (barring certain magic items), so there is a hard ceiling; this is an improvement over recent additions. Lastly, lastly :) I think this plays into the Bounded Accuracy that 5e uses: There is a limit on how high bonuses get, only +6 proficiency at 20th level, magic items max out at +3 (not that your campaign would have too many of these), so ability increases are expected to give higher level characters increased capacity. This keeps lower level opponents relevant for longer (unlike every other edition of D&D), a fair number of orcs can still be a threat to a 10th level party; that seems right up your alley in how you described your campaign.

As for Mulit-classing, it--like feats--is optional. It is trivial to disallow it, or only in special circumstances. There are more restrictions on it than there was on 3e multi-classing, for what it's worth.

As for the zero-to hero syndrome that you dislike (i.e. low level chars needing to 'grow up'), this has, IMHO, always been an issue with D&D, but perhaps was less of a problem in 4e than any other edition. You could always start out at level 3 (an option presented in the DMG I believe), as the first two levels are considered 'apprentice' tier and pass quickly.

I will give you the overall more 'magical' character classes. That is a problem from your perspective and seems to be the way RPG gamer tastes have gone over the years. WOTC tried to give non-magical classes umph in 4e, but the effort was decried by many, so I guess they went to a more "lets just give them abilities through spells and call it good" system.
 

I'm not sure how ability modifiers where different in AD&D. I seem to recall there was the same "odd ability modifier" problem there, it was just that there was a smaller range until you got to the 18 xx/100 system. But that was only for strength.
In early editions, there was no bonus given for moderate ability scores (between 8 and 13 or so) and then quickly scaling bonuses between 16 and 20 - a score of 19 was way better than an 18, which was way better than a 17.

Most importantly, ability checks were made on a strict "roll-under" system. If you wanted to make a Dexterity check, then you needed to roll under your Dexterity stat in order to succeed. In that way, a score of 18 meant that you were 50% more likely to succeed at a check than someone with a score of 8. (You could have a penalty to your check, but it was a flat modifier, so the 18 was always at +10 compared to the 8).
 

Possibly; that's what I'm trying to determine. The way that magic has become more pervasive within some of the classes makes me question it, but the modular nature of the game may make for better support (if more effort on my part to fill in the missing pieces).

I'll explain how I interpret the magic level based on the sparse magic feeling you seem to be aiming for.

5e Pros:
-No assumption of magic items--you can literally play the game without magic items at all, and the math works out. There are some monsters that are resistant or immune to non-magical weapons, which makes for some interesting experiences of creativity, and puts the fear of the supernatural into the world.
-It includes the non-magical classes you've come to expect from 2e: Fighter and Rogue. They each have 2 subclasses to choose from (they each have an additional magic-using one, which you simply disallow). Fighter has a simple Champion for the same feel you've come to expect, plus the Battle Master which lets you use combat maneuvers. Battle Master is great for a low-magic (or even no-magic campaign) because it lets you custom design fighters with a variety of completely Magic Free™ combat styles. You can make a swashbuckler who disarms and ripostes, a gladiator who tosses people around the battlefield, or a tactical leader who can call out commands to allies. And if there are any maneuvers you dislike, you just cross them off of the campaign options. Rogue comes in Thief and Assassin flavors, and the only magic they have is that Thief can read scrolls, I mean use magical devices, at a high level. Plus, you get the Barbarian (Berserker) as a bonus non-magical class!
-They've tried to put more wonder than numbers into magical items. For example, some magic weapons and armor don't even give you +s (and the highest + is +3), they just give you some cool special ability instead. So the magic items you do find will feel more "magical."

5e Cons:
-Most caster classes have at-will cantrips. This is something you can houserule out, but you'd have to decide how you want to do it--there isn't just an obvious "cross it off the options" solution.
-By default, absurdly easy to identify magical items. The DMG has a variant rule for that.
-Bards are full-casters. No simple fix for that.
-Paladins and rangers get spellcasting at 2nd-level. Ditto (although you can find official rules for a non-magical ranger here).

So the summary is that you can basically play exactly the level of magic it sounds like you want if you house-rule how cantrips and item identification work. You'd also want to disallow the Magic Initiate feat, and maybe the Ritual Caster feat (though you might actually like that one).

That doesn't address bards and paladins, but that is a class issue rather than an overall sparsity of magic issue.

I don't seem to recall ability modifiers or leveling of ability scores being in any edition prior to 3.0, so no, it's just criticism of elements from more recent editions.

I agree that the way they established ability modifiers in 3e is somewhat unfortunate. Note however, that they only standardized the numbers which had been there since 1e and BECMI. The major advantage of 2e is that you used your entire ability score for ability/proficiency checks. The disadvantage of that method is that the roll-under situation makes it unwieldy--especially when you are dealing with supernaturally high scores.

As far as getting to increase your ability scores as you level up, there are two points to that. The first is that your scores are capped at 20, and the second is that the math works a little differently. You don't have to have a high score in your primary ability scores like you did in 3e and 4e. If you want your fighter to have a Strength 14 and fight with a battleaxe, you can still be an effective character. You won't be as good as a fighter with a higher Strength, but those little +s aren't as critical for success in this edition. But--paradoxically sounding--they are also a bigger deal because there are fewer places you can get them, and they cap out at lower numbers.

The jury is still out on whether it would be as/more difficult in other editions; so far I see more modifications that would have to be made to 5E than with 2E. It's just a question of whether what remains after those modifications makes the effort worthwhile. The purpose in the theorizing is an attempt to evaluate the extent of that effort.

2e is my favorite D&D "feel." 5e is my favorite rule set, because it does a better job of enabling me to play with that feel than other editions, while cleaning up a lot of the mechanical issues of 2e I didn't like. So let's see if I can give you some useful ideas to consider.

The ones that are standing out to me as major considerations are bard, paladin, and ranger. If you don't want highly magical bards, your best bet is probably just to ignore that class and make a new rogue subclass to represent the bard you want--probably selecting abilities for him from the bard's non-magical abilities--which would probably be fairly easy. I kind of want to see how fast and well I can do that now just as an exercise, despite the fact that I have no intention of using the results. That link I gave above (with the non-magical ranger) gives advice on how to modify classes and subclasses. The non-magical ranger is an option if you like it, and paladin is really supposed to be a holy warrior anyway. Otherwise he's a fighter. You might allow a higher-level fighter to take the Magic Initiate (cleric) feat if you wanted to replicate a paladin with just a touch of magic (or Magic Initiate (druid) for a ranger).

One of the lead designers has gestalt multiclassing (which we presume is referring to AD&D style demi-human multiclassing) on his list of subjects to give us free rules for in the future. It was one of a number of things that was going to be in the DMG (and apparently already had rules created for) but got cut in the final pass due to space considerations. I'm really looking forward to that one--as it's important for my own campaign.

Cantrips. Just give full-casters some 0th-level spell slots and let them automatically prepare/know the number of cantrips listed. They can prepare more with their other spell preparations.

As far as cleric domains...I'm personally a fan of the relatively small number of domains. What you have to realize is that they are supposed to be both broad and significant. The pantheons at the back of the DMG give you examples of which domains work well for which deities. If you read the intro paragraphs for each domain you will see how they are supposed to be more or less comprehensive. Knowledge includes (amongst other things) magic and crafting for instance, and is appropriate for the dwarf god Moradin. Trickery covers fortune and luck sorts of concepts, as well as darkness, along with other tricksy things. Light hits beauty, and truth, as well as fire. For your elements in general, you could use Nature for any or all, and Tempest can give you water, air, cold, Zeus, Thor and more. The other domains are similar--and even the ones I listed have more example uses. The Death domain in the DMG is broad enough to be appropriate for many stripes of evil, and it also works as a non-evil domain for gods of the dead like Kelemvor. It isn't set up with the same level of fine granularity that 3e had, where they would just make a new domain whenever they wanted. Instead, the domains cover everything with a little bit of thought. And they give you substantial stuff. Clerics of two different domains can almost look like completely different classes. It's more along the lines of 2e specialty priests than 3e domains.

One thing you might want to take into account when determining the ease of modification is that feats are big. You can really stick a lot into a feat. In conversion terms, each one of them is about equal to about three feats in 3e (or two epic feats), and sometimes they are even better than that because of the way the rules work. There are no feat-chains needed. A feat is supposed to give you everything you need to specialize in a particular thing. This means you can add almost anything you want to add to character capabilities via a feat. If you decide that you want it to take up two feats, then you can really add a lot. Two feats is a poor man's wizard (Magic Initiate + Ritual Caster), or any variety of powerful combat combinations.

What other sorts of modifications do you feel are necessary to get what you're going for?

I guess I'm a harder sell. I'm definitely still considering it, and as I said, I've got more to learn before making a decision. I've seen enough that I really want to like 5E, but at the same time I see a lot of problems that would come from using it as well. There are definitely a lot of problems from previous editions which it solves nicely. 5E does appear to be a good system, I'm just uncertain whether it is the right system for what I'm trying to do.

Ah yes...I know that feeling well.
 

Blackbird71

First Post
I'm not sure how ability modifiers where different in AD&D. I seem to recall there was the same "odd ability modifier" problem there, it was just that there was a smaller range until you got to the 18 xx/100 system.

There were no "ability modifiers" as such in AD&D. Each ability had its own table (AD&D seemed to love making you look things up on tables) which listed the various effects modified at different levels of that ability, such as bonus spells, damage modifiers, defense adjustment, reaction, extra hit points, etc. Each ability had multiple modifiers that it affected, and when your ability was high enough to receive bonuses, there was always something different between each ability score; e.g. for STR, at 16 your damage adjustment went up, at 17 your damage mod stayed the same but your hit probability went up, etc. The table may have been a bit cumbersome, but they gave each level of ability meaning, as opposed to having all the odd scores feel meaningless.

Fortunately, the increase comes in the form of +2, so you don't have to worry overmuch about the 'odd ability score' problem.

That all depends on starting stats - always adding 2 to an odd number means it remains an odd number. For some reason, whenever building a character in 3/3.5/PF with point buy, I always seemed to end up stuck with an odd ability score somewhere where it didn't do me any good. That always felt like wasted points, but at least once I hit level 4 I could correct it.

Lastly on abilities, you may have missed that scores cap at 20 (barring certain magic items), so there is a hard ceiling; this is an improvement over recent additions. Lastly, lastly :) I think this plays into the Bounded Accuracy that 5e uses: There is a limit on how high bonuses get, only +6 proficiency at 20th level, magic items max out at +3 (not that your campaign would have too many of these), so ability increases are expected to give higher level characters increased capacity. This keeps lower level opponents relevant for longer (unlike every other edition of D&D), a fair number of orcs can still be a threat to a 10th level party; that seems right up your alley in how you described your campaign.

I did notice some of these limitations, and yes you are right, those are helpful towards what I am looking for.

As for Mulit-classing, it--like feats--is optional. It is trivial to disallow it, or only in special circumstances. There are more restrictions on it than there was on 3e multi-classing, for what it's worth.

I have some very good reasons to want to include multiclassing, I just don't care for the method used in 5E. It shouldn't be too difficult to modify though.

I will give you the overall more 'magical' character classes. That is a problem from your perspective and seems to be the way RPG gamer tastes have gone over the years. WOTC tried to give non-magical classes umph in 4e, but the effort was decried by many, so I guess they went to a more "lets just give them abilities through spells and call it good" system.

To be fair, the "powers" given to non-magical classes in 4E mechanically had little difference than the spells given to the magical classes; that's why they took a lot of flak. It was too much of a homogenization making all the classes feel the same, magical or not. But I digress.

I'll explain how I interpret the magic level based on the sparse magic feeling you seem to be aiming for.

5e Pros:
-No assumption of magic items--you can literally play the game without magic items at all, and the math works out. There are some monsters that are resistant or immune to non-magical weapons, which makes for some interesting experiences of creativity, and puts the fear of the supernatural into the world.

Definitely a plus, and one of the main selling points for me at the moment.

-They've tried to put more wonder than numbers into magical items. For example, some magic weapons and armor don't even give you +s (and the highest + is +3), they just give you some cool special ability instead. So the magic items you do find will feel more "magical."

Yes, that's a bit of what I'm looking for. I'm not going to deprive the players of magical items entirely, but every item they come across should have a history and identity, and be a rare find to be treasured rather than coinpurse fodder.

-Most caster classes have at-will cantrips. This is something you can houserule out, but you'd have to decide how you want to do it--there isn't just an obvious "cross it off the options" solution.

I'm still trying to figure this one out - I do like that these give casters more than the "one spell per rest" that lower levels in old systems had, but I'm not sure whether I want to leave them as is.

-By default, absurdly easy to identify magical items. The DMG has a variant rule for that.
I'll look into that, thanks.

-Bards are full-casters. No simple fix for that.
I know, and the more I think about it the more of a sticking point this becomes. It may seem like an exaggeration, but this one detail really could upset the whole world I have been planning. The problem is how best to solve it. Part of the issue with bards is that they have always suffered from a bit of an identity crisis in that their characteristics have shifted so drastically between each edition, it's hard to figure out what exactly they are supposed to be.

-Paladins and rangers get spellcasting at 2nd-level. Ditto (although you can find official rules for a non-magical ranger here).

I'm not as concerned about the paladin, as the holy warrior actually fits within the framework I have so far. The ranger is a bit more problematic. I did see the non-magical ranger build, and it's a step in the right direction, but frankly the 5E ranger just fails to impress in general. At least from my perspective, it feels the most like the class that was tossed in at the end when they had to go to print and didn't have time to iron out all the details. I have a hard time pointing out what exactly is wrong with it; it just feels fundamentally mediocre. Short of a ground-up redesign, I'm not sure how else to fix it.

As far as getting to increase your ability scores as you level up, there are two points to that. The first is that your scores are capped at 20, and the second is that the math works a little differently. You don't have to have a high score in your primary ability scores like you did in 3e and 4e. If you want your fighter to have a Strength 14 and fight with a battleaxe, you can still be an effective character. You won't be as good as a fighter with a higher Strength, but those little +s aren't as critical for success in this edition. But--paradoxically sounding--they are also a bigger deal because there are fewer places you can get them, and they cap out at lower numbers.

Good to know; I'll keep that in consideration.

2e is my favorite D&D "feel." 5e is my favorite rule set, because it does a better job of enabling me to play with that feel than other editions, while cleaning up a lot of the mechanical issues of 2e I didn't like. So let's see if I can give you some useful ideas to consider.

I'm right with you on 2E; so how close does 5E get you to that same "feel"?

The ones that are standing out to me as major considerations are bard, paladin, and ranger. If you don't want highly magical bards, your best bet is probably just to ignore that class and make a new rogue subclass to represent the bard you want--probably selecting abilities for him from the bard's non-magical abilities--which would probably be fairly easy.

I'll consider this; I wouldn' mind the bard having some casting ability, but it would need to be severely limited compared to what it is now.

One of the lead designers has gestalt multiclassing (which we presume is referring to AD&D style demi-human multiclassing) on his list of subjects to give us free rules for in the future. It was one of a number of things that was going to be in the DMG (and apparently already had rules created for) but got cut in the final pass due to space considerations. I'm really looking forward to that one--as it's important for my own campaign.

Very good to know; I hope we don't have to wait too much longer to see it! The pessimist in me wants to believe that if it hasn't been released by now, it will probably be splatbook material, but I'll try to get him to shut up for now.

As far as cleric domains...I'm personally a fan of the relatively small number of domains. What you have to realize is that they are supposed to be both broad and significant. The pantheons at the back of the DMG give you examples of which domains work well for which deities. If you read the intro paragraphs for each domain you will see how they are supposed to be more or less comprehensive. Knowledge includes (amongst other things) magic and crafting for instance, and is appropriate for the dwarf god Moradin. Trickery covers fortune and luck sorts of concepts, as well as darkness, along with other tricksy things. Light hits beauty, and truth, as well as fire. For your elements in general, you could use Nature for any or all, and Tempest can give you water, air, cold, Zeus, Thor and more. The other domains are similar--and even the ones I listed have more example uses. The Death domain in the DMG is broad enough to be appropriate for many stripes of evil, and it also works as a non-evil domain for gods of the dead like Kelemvor. It isn't set up with the same level of fine granularity that 3e had, where they would just make a new domain whenever they wanted. Instead, the domains cover everything with a little bit of thought. And they give you substantial stuff. Clerics of two different domains can almost look like completely different classes. It's more along the lines of 2e specialty priests than 3e domains.

The world I have planned will involve several specialized religous orders, so whether 2E specialty priests or 5E domains, I was expecting to do a bit of class creation. Part of what bothered me on 5E before was the apparent lack of domains for truly evil clerics, but I hadn't seen the death domain; I'll have to look into that.

What other sorts of modifications do you feel are necessary to get what you're going for?

I'm not sure yet, but I'm certain that I'll come up with more as I learn more about the system. You've given me a lot of good ideas to start with though, and it has been much appreciated!
 
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kerleth

Explorer
Okay, I have to admit two things before I comment. One, I committed the cardinal sin and didn't read through the whole thread before I posted. Two, I started playing in 3rd edition (though I was introduced to the concept of Dnd via novels and such before then).

As far as low magic, 5e blows both 3rd and 4th edition out of the water in my opinion. Also, some of the "magical" subclasses are only magical in a very limited sense. For example, the totem barbarian eventually gets to cast speak with animals. That can very easily be refluffed as a more primal connection with creatures. You rely more on instincts, body language, etc. and can communicate better with animals as a result. Sure, you wouldn't HAVE to do that, cause there is always the frenzied berserker, but it's an easy to use option. I would like to point out that there are some creatures who have "resistance(or immunity) to nonmagical weapon damage". I believe that the designers phrased it this way precisely so low magic campaigns could find interesting solutions like setting them on fire, trapping them in a landslide, so on and so forth.
One of the big concerns about low magic is healing. The default healing system allows parties without magical healing to survive without having to spend weeks in town after every battle. The default is a little fast for some people's tastes, but the DMG has a few different options for adjusting that. (Not to mention 5E's general ease of hacking-to-taste).

Character variety: This is a big one for me, and I have to say that I find the character variety available in the core rulebook to be greater than that of 3rd or 4th edition. I won't go into the specifics because I would hate to incite any edition warring, but here is an example of what you can do with 5th edition.
3 fighters.
Fighter 1) Fighter one is a dexterity based elven marksman. He is skilled at climbing, swimming, finding food, navigating the wild, following tracks, spotting ambushes, springing ambushes, finding traps, and disarming them. This is all at level one.
Fighter 2) Fighter one is a strength based Half-orc. In an attempt to compensate for his childhood as an outcast, he has honed his social skills to be as sharp as a blade. He wields a sword and shield, can help block attacks aimed at his allies, and can trip, shove, and grapple well. Out of combat he is skilled at persuading people, be it with cunning lies, passionate pleas, or dire threats, and is also good at catching people in their lies. This is also all at level one.
Fighter 3) Is a human combat medic, and may perform quick first aid, even in the midst of combat if necessary. He wields a greataxe, reasoning that the quicker his foes fall, the less likely his allies will. He also served as an aid to the chaplain and picked up skills that the rest of the rank and file didn't, including knowledge of history and religion. Like the other two, this character could be made at level one.

Of course you could mix and match aspects of the above, and there are more choices than just those, but the point is that with a party of 3-4 "mundanes" and 2 "full mages" or 1 "full mage" and 2 "dabblers" you'll have plenty of options for unique characters.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
There were no "ability modifiers" as such in AD&D. Each ability had its own table (AD&D seemed to love making you look things up on tables) which listed the various effects modified at different levels of that ability, such as bonus spells, damage modifiers, defense adjustment, reaction, extra hit points, etc. Each ability had multiple modifiers that it affected, and when your ability was high enough to receive bonuses, there was always something different between each ability score; e.g. for STR, at 16 your damage adjustment went up, at 17 your damage mod stayed the same but your hit probability went up, etc. The table may have been a bit cumbersome, but they gave each level of ability meaning, as opposed to having all the odd scores feel meaningless.

That all depends on starting stats - always adding 2 to an odd number means it remains an odd number. For some reason, whenever building a character in 3/3.5/PF with point buy, I always seemed to end up stuck with an odd ability score somewhere where it didn't do me any good. That always felt like wasted points, but at least once I hit level 4 I could correct it.

Thank you for the reminder, it's been a while. Yes I see your point, but the AD&D system is unquestionably more convoluted, and--depending on the stat--some of the benefits at certain levels are questionable. For better or for worse, 5e (and d20 D&D before it), has chosen a more streamlined system. If they really wanted to, they could have made your ability score reduced to just the bonus (+1, +2...) and nothing would be lost (I think the True d20 system did so a while back); but not using the 3-18 ability score system would have made it "Not D&D". The point is that it doesn't matter if you have an odd ability score or an even one, taking an ability enhancement at level up increases you bonus by one. The only difference being that if you subsequently take a feat that gives you +1 ability score plus some other benefit, the odd ability score guy had his bonus increase again, while the even one did not. But the odd ability score "cost" more for point buy (if you were to use point buy), so there is that.


I have some very good reasons to want to include multiclassing, I just don't care for the method used in 5E. It shouldn't be too difficult to modify though.

Sound interesting, but multiclassing can be very tricky to get right, as 3e's à la carte multiclassing showed. I agree with you in that I don't care for this style of implementation, it feels to me like trying to smash together a point buy and class based system, two things that are fundamentally different. One thing I do like is the pseudo-multiclassing you can do through feats such as magic initiate and ritual caster; enough to give you some flavor and ability of a multiclass without all the headaches that can ensue.


To be fair, the "powers" given to non-magical classes in 4E mechanically had little difference than the spells given to the magical classes; that's why they took a lot of flak. It was too much of a homogenization making all the classes feel the same, magical or not. But I digress.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. Yet I submit that giving the martial classes abilities with mechanical meat (other than just a +x to hit/damage) in a D&Dish framework is a fraught endeavor. All one needs to do is look at the thread on WOTC's non-magical Ranger to see the complaints on how this ability ruins the "suspension of disbelief" or that ability does not make sense because of situation A, or what about factor B when C happens. Without a host provisos, or even complicated subsystems to at least approximate 'real world' conditions and physics, these grievances always seem to arise. Much easier to just hand out a limited, thematic spell list and just use the 'it's magic' hand wave and be done with it. But I digress on your digression.



Yes, that's a bit of what I'm looking for. I'm not going to deprive the players of magical items entirely, but every item they come across should have a history and identity, and be a rare find to be treasured rather than coinpurse fodder.

agreed.


I know, and the more I think about it the more of a sticking point this becomes. It may seem like an exaggeration, but this one detail really could upset the whole world I have been planning. The problem is how best to solve it. Part of the issue with bards is that they have always suffered from a bit of an identity crisis in that their characteristics have shifted so drastically between each edition, it's hard to figure out what exactly they are supposed to be.

Maybe a return to 1e and require a rogue/Druid/Fighter mulit-class? Or some of the multiclass like feats? Possibly with a certain background?
 
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