CONTROVERSIAL QUESTION: Difficult Subject Matter.

[Seonaid]

Let me just say right off, because I neglected to earlier, that I see nothing wrong with having rape in a character's backstory. As others have said, done well it's a good plot device and part of a heck of a lot of literature (and history). I realize that's what I had quoted originally, but I wasn't responding just to that post.

I also don't mind if other people want to "play" at rape, as long as it is only play and the people involved are mature enough to understand what they are doing. I wouldn't want to play D&D with those people, and it kind of squicks me out, but I (obviously) have no say in what other people do in the privacy of their own games.

I guess I feel like rape is different than other atrocities because the overwhelming majority of rapes are committed against women. The others are "equal opportunity" crimes. (I'm not certain I'd list suicide in here, unless it was some sort of "forced" suicide.) In addition, a lot of people don't see rape as wrong, so it's a little harder to find the line between acceptable and not acceptable. Most people agree that taking the life of someone else is bad. Some people go farther and feel that taking the life of someone else who wants you to do it is bad. Given that people rarely say about a murder victim, "He was asking for it" or "She really wanted it," I feel that rape is a more serious and borderline case.

I guess that for practical purposes, it would depend on the group. If it was a bunch of 15 year old boys (and none of them had experienced any sexual trauma) I would be more concerned than if it was a mixed group of adults.

---

WRT to the original post, I feel as others have said--it depends on the world. There is no one right answer. I think it would be neat if the dwarf and her clan did the opposite of what the players expect (as someone else said), or the opposite of what the people in the world would think, but that (and any other response) would depend on what type of world it is.

I would also be interested in learning how the situation played out. Do you have any updates for us, Visigani, or was it just a hypothetical?

 

[Water Bob]

II guess I feel like rape is different than other atrocities....

I'm not sure why (I've never been associated with a sexual crime in my life, either with myself or someone close to me), but I do have a pet peeve about rape. I see it in a film or read it in a book, and it moves me to horror in a way few other things can.

I remember the scene in Saving Private Ryan, where the German is slowly killing the American soldier with a bayonete. Damn, that was a hard scene to watch. I felt it. But, it's not often I feel that way when watching someone kill someone else in a film.

Throw in a rape scene, though, and almost always it will effect me. I remember how horrified I was with that rape scene of Dr. Melfi in The Sopranos, or with that scene in Leaving Las Vegas (and, if you watch it again, you'll notice that there's not much there--mostly black screen!).

Why rape feels so much more personal and invasive to me than murder, I don't know. But, it does effect me, quite a lot.

That's why I sometimes use it as an emotional tool in my games. I'll set up an NPC, and if I see that NPC is genuinely being accepted by the players--that they like and care for that NPC--it becomes (under the right circumstances) a powerful story-telling tool to put that NPC in jeapordy so that the Players/PC's will have a solid, heart-felt reason to go after the bad guys.

I try not to overuse it, as any story telling tool, if used to often, becomes boring (and I sure don't want my players' saying, "Oh, look! An NPC is being raped again!")

But, in the right situation, rape can be a powerful part of a deep roleplaying game.

The GM has got to know his audience, though. He could "lose" his players, too, if they rebel and feel that he's "stepped over the line".

I would also be interested in learning how the situation played out. Do you have any updates for us, Visigani, or was it just a hypothetical?

I'd like to hear how it played out, as well.

And, as Seonaid said, it would be pleasing to hear that the child was born under circumstances that surprise the players.

For example, I'd love to hear that the child, product of the rape in question, is actually the answer to an age old prophecy...

"...A child, born of dark conflict, will come and ....(insert storyline appropriate prophecy...)."

 

[Celebrim]

I guess I feel like rape is different than other atrocities because the overwhelming majority of rapes are committed against women.

There are some recent estimates/evidence that this is not true. Rapes are difficult to count because they are usually underreported, but by some estimates more men rape other men (prison for example) than women.

 

[Visigani]

I guess I feel like rape is different than other atrocities because the overwhelming majority of rapes are committed against women.

This statement has taken the thread into a direction I am no longer comfortable associating myself with.


Heinous Action A is worse because it happens to Preferential Group B.


That this degree of bigotry has been largely hand waved is something I am terribly uncomfortable with.


To put a finer point on it:

"Well, which is worse someone murdering someone else or someone ripping off someone else's life savings?"

"Oh, they're both terrible actions. However, I'd have to say that ripping people off is definitely worse."

"Wait, what, why?"

"Well, because it tends to be white people who are conned in this fashion. So it's worse."

"Just because it happens to white people more often?"

"Yup."

"It's worse than murder? Like actual murder? Because it happens to white people a disproportionate amount of the time?"

"Yeah. It makes sense to me."

"Well, that's because you've dehumanized the other person. Any reasonable person would see that outright killing someone (not to mention ritually butchering them) would be worse than stealing someones life savings, despite both being terrible. However, because it's the other group that's more likely to be murdered you apply significantly less associated pain and suffering they would feel. Make sense?"

"No, not sure I follow."

"Alright, try this. Let's say you were a Prince, and before you were two men. One a fellow aristocrat, the other a peasant. The aristocrat while louting about set the peasant's house on fire, resulting in the death of his youngest son. The peasant in a fit of rage attacked the aristocrat, punching him in the face and kicking him across the lawn. Physical injuries were minor, a swollen eye and a bruised ego. However, because of your programming, Prince, because of your inherent bigotry you would be inclined to see things from the aristocrats side and you would be far less empathetic towards the peasant, despite the peasants grievous loss. More likely than not you would mitigate your punishment of the peasant based on the peasants loss but would use that mitigation as a rationale to dismiss any punishment for the aristocrat at all."

"I think I see where you're going with this. My natural bias, my "programmed" way of thinking leads me to commit actions that are bigoted. Such as if someone were to say "I believe rape is much worse than ritually butchering an innocent person because I happen to value the group most likely to be the victim of that particular crime".

"Sort of, you'd likely need more of a rationalization though".

"How do you mean?"

"Well, if you just out and out said "I think crime A is worse because it happens to a group I value above others" it would be impossible to hide your bigotry."

"Oh, I get it. So I'd have to think of a connected "reason" why I thought the way I did, sort of like "It's a worse crime because it targets a particular group of people whereas the other crime tends to be more broad based and likely to happen to almost anyone regardless of their background".

"Correct, and even that logic is ridiculously flawed. That's like saying art theft is worse than shooting someone in the head because art thieves tend to target rich people and you can shoot anyone in the head with a gun".


"You know, I think you're right. I have to ask though, why has no one corrected me on this before?"

"Well, probably because you're a FEXXXX".

"Why would me being a FEXXXX have anything to do with it?"

"Well, in our culture today and especially in certain niches of that culture it's perfectly acceptable or at least understood to be allowed... to devalue and dehumanize certain people based on their ethnicity, nationality, or.... gender."

"Why don't more people speak up about it?"

"Well, usually because they're shouted down. Being a FEXXXX puts you in a protected class. Culturally speaking, you're the modern version of the aristocrat. There are so many laws, rules, and cultural norms slated in your favor that you hardly see the forest for the trees."

"Oh, BS. Name one.".

"I'd rather not. Seriously."

"Why not?"

"For the same reason I'm writing FEXXXX, I'm going to catch a huge amount of flack for simply pointing out the bigotry of someone in a "protected class" of people. It was subtle bigotry, but it was shining clear as day to me. "This crime is worse because it's more likely to happen to a member of the Protected Class".

"I think I see your point. So what do you think will happen? Think you'll get banned?"

"Possibly, not sure. I'll likely get a "stern talking to", and there's a pretty good chance I'll catch hell from the other forum goers. It is what it is."

"Just for speaking out against bigotry?"

"Well, they likely won't see it that way."

"How do you mean?"

"Well, if you're convinced blue is green and calling someone 3/5ths of a man is right and proper it's hard to see otherwise. Any rational person can see the bigotry inherent in saying a crime is worse because it happens to a protected class of adults."

"Ahh, but see there, see what you did? You said "adults". Aren't children a protected class?"

"Of course they are, but do you really want to equate FEXXXXXX with children? Are they as defenseless and naive? Are they as weak and helpless? I don't think so. However, follow that line of reasoning. Is pedophilia wrong? I think it is. However, which is worse pedophilia, or ritually dismembering a child? They're both horrific, but which is worse? What if I told you, straight faced that ritually dismembering was "more acceptable" of the unacceptable because it was more likely to be committed "on an equal opportunity basis" to XXXX children? Would you not think I was a monster? Would you not seriously question my reasoning?"

"Wow."

"Yeah."

"Bigotry."

"Yeah."




... and after that, yeah. I can't stand such hateful comments. So I'm outtie as far as this particular part of the conversation is concerned.

 

[Water Bob]

Rapes are difficult to count because they are usually underreported, but by some estimates more men rape other men (prison for example) than women.

Hm. I find that second part hard to believe, unless the total number of rapes in prison exceed those that go on outside of prison. And, I would find that hard to believe, too.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

While the Book of Erotic Fantasy isn't endorsed by WoTC, it does have a lot of good content pertaining to the rules of, well, Erotic Fantasy.

Going by those rules, as well as the standard fare of dwarves not being very proliferate at all, she would not have gotten pregnant under normal circumstances. Since you said she did get pregnant though, we can certainly assume the child will be a half-breed and take on various traits of both parents.

Based upon the standard published works, I believe the woman would in the end keep the child to show that she can persevere through difficult times. She'll have a lot of contrary thoughts about the pregnancy because children are rare and thus a blessing to dwarves, but at the same time this particular child might end up being a curse. In true dwarf stubbornness she'll do her best to raise the baby to be be strong and honorable despite the orcish tendencies it will have.

Other dwarves will most likely adopt a "wait and see" approach with regards to the mother and child. They'll almost certainly not dote on her as much as other mothers, but they realize they might be witness to the coming of a truly inspirational individual who is strong in spite of (and probably because of too) his mixed ancestry. If the child succeeds at being a good member of the clan, then he or she will be welcomed with open arms not only there but in other dwarf communities because word got around of this mother and child who did far more than simply survive one of the worst things an enemy can do.

 

[S'mon]

In addition, a lot of people don't see rape as wrong, so it's a little harder to find the line between acceptable and not acceptable.

This may vary by culture, but traditionally in British prisons the armed robber who murdered a security guard is not stigmatised by other prisoners, he'll tend to have high status, whereas the convicted rapist (including heterosexual, adult) rapist is in considerable danger of attack from other prisoners, who see his action as despicable. That's the culture of the white British criminal class.

 

[S'mon]

Hm. I find that second part hard to believe, unless the total number of rapes in prison exceed those that go on outside of prison. And, I would find that hard to believe, too.

Rape seems very common in American prison culture, from what I've read, and this has had major knock-on effects in US culture more generally - but I'm not sure if discussing it might contravene a moderation policy - politics? But I'm also sceptical that more rapes occur inside prison than outside. Maybe if the definition of rape requires force/threat of force, rather than merely lack of consent, prison rapes might edge ahead, but I'm sure there's no reliable data.

 

[Galieo]

RE: OP

In skimming the posts I did not see a reference to Midnight, which does provide for dworgs. I suggest looking at how dworgs are treated generally.

Fantasy (and Science Fiction) is riddled with the Half-breed trope.

My view is that rpg games are replete with mechanisms like this; whether one plays to type or turns it on its head, there is good roleplay fodder here. Just off the top of my head such a pc would have many nicely built-in character threads (e.g., intense protection of mother, resilience, hunger for acceptance, etc.).

 

[Visigani]

Rape seems very common in American prison culture, from what I've read, and this has had major knock-on effects in US culture more generally - but I'm not sure if discussing it might contravene a moderation policy - politics? But I'm also sceptical that more rapes occur inside prison than outside. Maybe if the definition of rape requires force/threat of force, rather than merely lack of consent, prison rapes might edge ahead, but I'm sure there's no reliable data.

Because gay men never engage in predatory conduct against other gay men.


Further, when a 32 yo gay man has sex, even "consentual" sex with a 14 yo boy... that's still rape.


I'm shocked by what appears to be a massive blind spot. Women DO rape men. The means they go about it may differ... but the end result and horror are all too often the same. And to be honest, the things women do to men are frequently all the more horrific because they have government sanction.


Consider the very definition of "Rape"... and then tell me which more fits that definition... a man ejaculating on the leg of a woman... or:

Man Receives Oral Sex, Ordered to Pay Child Support | MND: Your Daily Dose of Counter-Theory


And this sort of thing is FAR more common than you think. One of my employees is required to pay thousands and thousands in child support. He's a black man in his 40s. The mother of the child is white. The child is white as can be and even the mother of the child confirms the child is not his. However, the child's actual father hasn't worked a day in years consequently she chose to say that my worker was the father. Because he did not protest in time he is now on the hook for years to come.


You want to talk about the emotional horrors of rape? Try coping with discovering the child you've loved for years is not even yours... that both she and you have been deceived in arguably the most cruel manner possible (imagine coming home thanksgiving and your parents tear off their masks to reveal they are not what they thought they were... or you were) but then you're required to PAY your "rapist" (on penalty of incarceration, loss of driving privilege, passport, they can even take away your business license) for years to come.

And there's no crime or social stigma associated with this horrific cruelty. Rather, there are endless apologists and bigots (like the above) who will cry foul should you even dare to compare the two.