Converting 1st/2nd Edition Modules to 4th Edition

[RomanStoic]

Hey everyone,

Here's an update--I sent an email to WotC's customer service to ask them directly. The following is what I sent to them:

Hello,

This question references the following products and books:
1. H2: Thunderspire Labyrinth, pages 8-9
2. 4th Edition DM Guide, page 104
3. T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil (TSR, 1E module), pages 45-46

My question mainly regards the C4 encounter in Thunderspire Labyrinth. C4 includes three different groups of monsters which are spread out in several rooms. If the PCs enter location 10 first, they eventually fight all of the monsters (the other two groups come to help the group in location 10) but if the PCs enter location 6 first, then they only fight two groups--the third group stays put in location 10.

Let's say that the PCs enter through location 6 and fight groups 3 and 2, but group 1 stays in location 10. The PCs then leave the general area and take a short rest to regain encounter powers. After their rest, they go back to the C4 encounter area, enter location 10, and kill group 1.

In such a scenario, isn't C4 being split into TWO encounters rather than one? If so, is this anything to really worry about? Also, do the PCs gain XP for defeating the monsters they killed (except group 1, of course), or do they not gain any XP until they complete the entire encounter (by entering the final room and killing group 1)?

The main reason I ask is because I am in the process of converting the 1st Edition module T1-4 (Temple of Elemental Evil) into 4th Edition. 1st Edition dungeons are massive and include dozens of rooms on each Dungeon Level with many different monsters, some which will come to help each other, others which will not. To ensure balanced and fun encounters which offer challenge and do not become boring, I am attempting to redesign T1-4's many encounters according to the 'Encounter Difficulty' chart on page 104 of the 4E DM Guide. Since there are so many monster groups in each dungeon level of the Temple of Elemental Evil, what I think is appropriate would be to combine most of these monster groups into singular encounters, just like encounter C4 in Thunderspire Labyrinth.

The problem I run into whilst doing so, though, is that many of the monster groups in the Temple do not come to help each other. Example: rooms 103-107 of Dungeon Level One in the Temple are filled with harpies, ghouls, and ghasts. All monsters hear the sounds of combat but only one group goes to help out the harpies; the others stay in their rooms (just like group 1 in Thunderspire's C4 encounter if the PCs enter location 6 first). But the PCs have a much easier time of wandering off without even bothering to check the other rooms containing the remaining ghouls/ghasts after fighting the harpy/ghoul duo. Doesn't that reduce the encounter's difficulty?

For example, let's say that I take the 'Encounter Difficulty' chart on page 104 of the DM Guide and design rooms 103-107 in the Temple of Elemental Evil to constitute a Level + 0 encounter. But if the PCs only fight half of the groups involved and then leave to recuperate, then clearly the 'encounter' was considerably easier than a Level + 0 one. If the PCs killed a few ghouls, then left, rested, and returned, wouldn't that be two Level - 1 encounters (or even easier?). Is this even a problem at all--does it matter if the PCs leave mid-way through fighting the groups without checking the other rooms and fighting the other groups which make up the whole encounter?

My apologies for the long and convoluted series of questions, but I am truly at my wits' end with working on encounters. I love the 'combine several groups into one encounter' idea because it would make converting these huge 1st Edition dungeon crawls so much more sensible, but I fear that if the PCs were to just leave halfway through an 'encounter', they wouldn't be being properly challenged.

Thank you in advance for your response!

Here is the response I received from customer service:

In the situation you describe the Dungeon Master will need to make the final decision on how this is resolved, the rules do not have a process for resolving this.

Well, gee . . . I suppose that what I shall do is as follows: I'll take the suggestion above and organise multiple rooms into single encounters, perhaps so that all of Dungeon Level 1 is of the same level (so, roughly ten encounters in there, of varying difficulty according to page 104 of the DM Guide). If the PCs wander off without completing all of the 'parts' of a given encounter, then they'll get experience for whatever monsters/traps/whatever they overcame, whilst not receiving the rest for the part of the encounter they basically skipped over.

Looks like in that case I shall be bringing out the minions in force to maintain the feel of T1-4's huge groups of enemies! Although the situation feels a bit 'odd'--in that PCs could stroll off without really completing a full encounter--I doubt that, in the long run, it'll really matter all that much.

Thanks for the help, everyone! Maybe I'll post my conversion notes sometime.

 

[Bumamgar]

Keep in mind that even a dungeon isn't a static place. When the PC's take a short rest, the monsters aren't simply standing around idle. When the PC's leave and go to town, things change.

So, when running a dungeon crawl, these things come into play. If there are monsters who don't initially join a combat (they assume their buddies can handle it, or they are initially uninterested), and the party then leaves, or tried to take a short rest, these monsters can become interested pretty quick

For example, with the animals, you can lump them as a single connected encounter, even if they won't naturally help each other. Then, if the party takes a short rest in between the animals, ones nearby might smell the blood and come to investigate even though they wouldn't be inclined to help in a fight. If the party leaves and comes back a day later, maybe the animals have expanded their territory to include the now vacant rooms, or a new pest has moved in.

If it were me (and I plan on converting the Against the Giants series at some point), I would go with the theme of an area much more than precise monsters. If some caves have vermin in them, I'd find an appropriate level encounter of vermin and place it there, making it a logically linked encounter that fits the theme of the original module.

Keep in mind, many 1st/2nd edition monsters are artificially constrained to their rooms to give the PC's a chance to survive, since in 1st edition, it was generally assumed 1 monster = 1 encounter. 4E explicitly tries to do away with this other than exceptions (Solo dragons, etc), so the goal in converting an older module to 4E should be to keep in the spirit of 4E while telling the same story and fitting the theme of the older module.

 

[tintagel]

Keep in mind, many 1st/2nd edition monsters are artificially constrained to their rooms to give the PC's a chance to survive, since in 1st edition, it was generally assumed 1 monster = 1 encounter. 4E explicitly tries to do away with this other than exceptions (Solo dragons, etc), so the goal in converting an older module to 4E should be to keep in the spirit of 4E while telling the same story and fitting the theme of the older module.

Actually, I have to disagree with this wholeheartedly. 1st and 2nd edition modules were FULL of mulit-monster encounters. Maybe they didn't mix types much, if that's what you are thinking, but we found our share of 12-15 orcs at a time and such.

The Temple of Elemental Evil is chock full of multi-area encounters (Earth temple clerics on level 1, ghouls in western side of map on level 1, trolls on level 3, etc.) In fact, level 4 of the Temple had the party fighting:
* 4 ettins
* 4 hill giants
* 8+ gargoyles
* 9th level cleric
* 9th level wizard
* mix of about 3 more mid-level npcs

IN ONE FIGHT.

My advice to the OP is this: Run it realistically and use your judgement. D&D is NOT paint by number. WoTC won't be able to tell you how to make judgement calls. You decide how monsters react to sounds and stuff. Based on those decisions, modify the monster levels or numbers or types (minion, elite, etc) to get near the target xp number for the "encounter."

But even that is just a guideline. See my conversion of the top Moathouse level (earlier in this thread) for an example. Some fights are just easy. Some fights kick your players' collective butts. That's ok - even cool.

 

[mlangsdorf]

One thing you may want to consider is the difference in the relative strength of the levels. Orcs in ToEE are weak monsters, a slightly challenge for 1st level characters but fodder for 5th level characters. Orcs in 4th edition are an equal fight for 5th level characters.

Similarly, in the Greater Temple, there's a fight against multiple ettins, some giants, and a bunch of ogres. The weakest of those is an 8th level monster in 4th edition, and some of those are 14th+ level.

If I were running the Temple, I'd plan to have have the heroes come out around 12-14th level, which makes those 100+ encounters a lot more reasonable.

Other people's suggestions on combining monsters and rooms into 1 encounter are also good. You may also want to take the track of forcing the PCs through multiple low level encounters in a given day. They won't wrack up experience as fast, and you'll get more of the old-school feel.

 

[senorcoo]

My PC's are currently going through T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil (designed for levels 4-7 or 5-8), but only the Temple part of it. You have to group encounters in a way that makes sense. The old AD&D method of "fight in this room, but the bad guys next door don't hear us" doesn't work in 4E. Look at how the encounters could be grouped and put them together in a way that makes sense, yet stays true to the good old days. E.G. The harpy encounter on level one has 2 Harpies and some undead that arrive from the adjacent rooms. It's about a 4-5 room encounter sequence in the old module condensed into one encounter.

As an aside, the thing I love about the old modules is the in-depth room description, a characteristic that seems to be SORELY lacking in the 4E pre-made modules. My players went through KotS and just doing the entrance section of the temple left them with a sense of awe from the description alone. That is probably the most noticeable feature from the old TSR modules that the new stuff is missing - and probably the reason we all love the vintage stuff so much. There are areas to explore in the older adventures that don't just have encounters. In pre-made 4E adventures, every encounter area has a fight. This is the largest departure from previous editions and a feature that is going to have me doing additional updating of past modules.

It took me quite a while to get ToEE ready for 4E. Putting the encounters together, culling down the treasure to fit the total amount from the parcels (not actual parcels, but making sure the TOTAL amount fits as I like the scattered trinkets), and re-designing encounter areas with terrain features took some work, but it will be worth it.

I have included an attachment describing the encounter areas only (the maps have been hand drawn so are not included). Also, you can ignore some of the descriptions of the obstacles as they were done before I had read up on how to implement them. A couple of custom monsters in there from these boards as well as a one of my own design (Colon Golem - designed as a joke because of a player comment, but lethal) and a fightable version of big Z. Let me know what you think!

 

[tintagel]

As an aside, the thing I love about the old modules is the in-depth room description, a characteristic that seems to be SORELY lacking in the 4E pre-made modules. My players went through KotS and just doing the entrance section of the temple left them with a sense of awe from the description alone. That is probably the most noticeable feature from the old TSR modules that the new stuff is missing - and probably the reason we all love the vintage stuff so much. There are areas to explore in the older adventures that don't just have encounters. In pre-made 4E adventures, every encounter area has a fight. This is the largest departure from previous editions and a feature that is going to have me doing additional updating of past modules.

...

I have included an attachment describing the encounter areas only (the maps have been hand drawn so are not included). Also, you can ignore some of the descriptions of the obstacles as they were done before I had read up on how to implement them. A couple of custom monsters in there from these boards as well as a one of my own design (Colon Golem - designed as a joke because of a player comment, but lethal) and a fightable version of big Z. Let me know what you think!

This is awesome! Senorcoo, have you seen my ToEE maps? I mention them because I re-created them Word for Word using the descriptions. Here is a closeup of the Earth Temple for example:

I also did a sketchup 3D model of the Temple grounds and exterior flyby. It's up on Youtube: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvN8PYP348M]YouTube - The Temple of Elemental Evil - SketchUp[/ame]

My ToEE Maps (only up to level 1, with Waterside Hostel, Nulb, Moathouse, Hommlett). Click on the buttons to the left.
TOEE

 

[Ouronos]

As an aside, the thing I love about the old modules is the in-depth room description, a characteristic that seems to be SORELY lacking in the 4E pre-made modules. My players went through KotS and just doing the entrance section of the temple left them with a sense of awe from the description alone. That is probably the most noticeable feature from the old TSR modules that the new stuff is missing - and probably the reason we all love the vintage stuff so much. There are areas to explore in the older adventures that don't just have encounters. In pre-made 4E adventures, every encounter area has a fight. This is the largest departure from previous editions and a feature that is going to have me doing additional updating of past modules.

I, too, absolutely love the room desciptions of the old modules. IMHO, the old modules were just *done* better. Sure, some of the details may not have made sense (and required DM judication to make them make sense... I, for instance, was never one for the "they're in another room, so they don't hear anything" mindset), but in regards of 'story-tellability', they were far superior to what is being put out now.

If only they would continue with the room and area descriptions of old with the new stuff that they are putting out... [sigh].

It took me quite a while to get ToEE ready for 4E. Putting the encounters together, culling down the treasure to fit the total amount from the parcels (not actual parcels, but making sure the TOTAL amount fits as I like the scattered trinkets), and re-designing encounter areas with terrain features took some work, but it will be worth it.

I have included an attachment describing the encounter areas only (the maps have been hand drawn so are not included). Also, you can ignore some of the descriptions of the obstacles as they were done before I had read up on how to implement them. A couple of custom monsters in there from these boards as well as a one of my own design (Colon Golem - designed as a joke because of a player comment, but lethal) and a fightable version of big Z. Let me know what you think!

I think I'm in love. You have saved me a *ton* of work. I had been pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to convert T1-4 to a 4e setting, and here you are doing it already.

I can't wait until you post the rest of the conversion. (You are posting the rest of the conversion, right?)

Now all I have to do is find time in my busy schedule to make campaign adjustments, item cards, and minor tweaks. I yearn to return to the days when gaming *was* my job.

Until that time...