Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings

Cleon

Legend
I'd rather it go Large faster (two people side by side have a space of 10 ft. in D&D terms).

Firstly, two Small or Medium creatures can share the same 5 ft. square if they're grappling or just squeezing together, and I think a two merged lost souls could hardly get more squeezed together.

Secondly, a Large creature (under 3.5 edition) is 10 foot deep as well as wide. Since it occupies 4 squares I think it should require at least 4-8 individual lost souls, and I consider 6 as being a nice compromise number.

Also, I still think we need to actually have stat blocks at each size.

I thought we'd already agreed to do so.
 

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Cleon

Legend
Before we go any further, Can we call the individuals something different from "lost souls" to cut down on confusion. How about "wanderer", "dead wanderer" or "wandering dead", going by this passage:

"When a wanderer dies in the Terrain Between, there is a chance (40%) that the innate power of the land will cause the remains to rise as a zombie-like being called a lost soul. Once a lost soul is created, it immediately searches for others of its undead kind. When it finds them, it merges with them to become a single entity made up of the tangled, rotting bodies of many dead wanderers. The faces of the dead wanderers peer out from the central mass, looking wretched and as pained as the moans they emit. Once merged, the individual wanderers are subsumed into the newly created lost soul. Physical lost souls cannot enter dreamscapes."

OK, let's rework this.

After reading through it again, the weakest lost soul is clearly 4+4 HD. The original allows it to "grow" 4 times, gaining a total of 4 more HD and 4 more attacks. Although the text at one point contradicts the stat block and other text on number of claws, I think regardless of the starting number, it makes sense to gain 2 claw attacks with each merging (each individual "zombie" has 2 hands). I'd suggest we retain the original ratio, but allow for greater HD growth. Following that logic...

As I pointed out when I wrote up the rough draft, there are clear conflicts in the original description's Combat entry. It says a lost soul has 2 to 8 individual undead, gains 1+1 HD per undead and 1 attack per undead it absorbs to a maximum of 8+8 HD - which clearly infers 1+1 HD per individual Lost Soul. It also says lost souls fight with 2 claw attacks, not the 4 attacks of the example in the AD&D stats.

Thus, I think it's perfectly reasonable to infer they start out at 2+2 HD and 2 attacks, but a standard example has more HD and attacks, being formed from "many dead wanderers" instead of a mere two.

I think regardless of the starting number, it makes sense to gain 2 claw attacks with each merging (each individual "zombie" has 2 hands). I'd suggest we retain the original ratio, but allow for greater HD growth. Following that logic...

I would much rather keep the "gain 1 attack per merging" of the original. Just because the individual lost soul has 2 hands, that doesn't mean they can use them both when merged together. Half their arms could easily be fused in the mass. The basic model could be fused together shoulder-to-shoulder, for example.

I'm starting to think we should increase the size a bit. If they have 1 HD per Medium-sized creature, a 4 HD lost soul would weigh 200-1600 pounds, which is easily in Large territory.

Something like:

1 HD = Medium = 1 wanderer = 2 claw attacks (1d3 each)
2 HD = Medium = lost soul = 2 claw attacks (1d4)
4 HD = Large = lost soul = 4 claws
8 HD = Huge = lost soul = 8 claws
?

Fast healing could improve by 2 at each size increase. DR would improve at some point, but not necessarily each time.

Obviously, "absorb corpse" would need to be modified to account for these changes. For simplicity's sake, if two lost souls of different sizes merge, it would be easiest to add the total HD and find the closest size match.

Added the first two sizes to Homebrews.

Fast Healing equals HD is just as simple, and is in keeping with the original.

Also, that's a slower healing rate than the original monster. If anything it should get faster healing considering attacks do more damage in 3E.

You know, I fear we're going to have some here...:eek:
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
By the spacing logic of 3.5, shouldn't a Huge lost soul have 9 wanders and be 9HD?

I kind of prefer reconsidering DR and fast healing at each size; I don't necessarily fast healing =HD.

I believe the confusion about separate statblocks was because you kept mentioning a single advancement line.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Cleon, I think we're in a hopeless deadlock here.

Freyar, choose the version you like best and we'll run with it. (Or offer a third version to make the sweet, sweet chaos even more chaotic). :p
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
Tell me what we're deadlocked about, and I'll vote! :D How's that for chaos? Are we just arguing over HD levels for sizes?
 

Cleon

Legend
Tell me what we're deadlocked about, and I'll vote! :D How's that for chaos? Are we just arguing over HD levels for sizes?

Well, the main bone of contention is whether a basic "fused" lost soul has 2HD and 2 attacks (as the original body text says) or 4HD and 4 attacks (like the one in the stat block).

I prefer 2HD and 2 attacks, with 1 HD/attack per additional "wanderer", while Shade prefers 4HD and 2 attacks.

The HD/attacks for larger versions of Lost Souls follow on from the basic disagreement as to that of the basic model.

If you go for a 4HD and 2 or 4 attack version I would suggest giving the individual "wanderers" 2 HD, like a Zombie commoner, so the basic model can be formed from two wanderers fusing.
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Well, the main bone of contention is whether a basic "fused" lost soul has 2HD and 2 attacks (as the original body text says) or 4HD and 4 attacks (like the one in the stat block).

Please point out where it mentions 2 HD anywhere in the original text, because I'm not seeing it.

I can live with the 2 attacks, but not the 2 HD.

If you go for a 4HD and 2 or 4 attack version I would suggest giving the individual "wanderers" 2 HD, like a Zombie commoner, so the basic model can be formed from two wanderers fusing.

I'm also not fond of a separate-named single creature. I'd prefer we just make 'em zombies if we need a non-fused "original".
 

Shade

Monster Junkie
Allow me to clarify my opinion further...

The only thing that makes these entities interesting is the fact that they are fused. That being the case, I'm not terribly interested in statting up a "non-fused" original. We can hint at it in their origins, but I can't imagine why a DM would want to use a non-fused one instead of just using a zombie, ghoul, wight, etc.

Hmm...maybe any pair of undead could fuse in the Nightmare Lands to become a lost soul?
 

freyar

Extradimensional Explorer
I'd be happy enough to stick with zombies for the unfused version. We could always say "without the single action SQ" or whatever if we feel the need.

The bit about 2HD comes from the additive nature of HD postulated in this quote:
A lost soul regenerates hit points every round; 1 hit point is regained for every undead wanderer the lost soul consists of. As few as 2 or as many as 8 un dead can merge to form a single lost soul (2d4).

For each undead wanderer inside a lost soul, increase the Hit Dice by 1+1, damage by +1, AC by 1, THACO by 1, and number of attacks by 1. Therefore, the most powerful lost soul has 8+8 HD, inflicts 1d4+8 damage per attack, has an AC of 3, a THACO of 13, and makes 8 attacks.
From a linear perspective, that makes a "2 undead" lost soul 2HD. However, let's remember that zombies now have a minimum of 2HD (except for weird corner cases like zombie grigs), so the 3.X version should probably have 2HD/undead component. My proposal is to have

single wanderer = human commoner zombie (2HD)
"lost soul" = 4HD with 2 components, still Medium
Large lost soul = 4 components, 8HD
Huge lost soul = 9 components, 18 HD
some appropriate advancement in between. But I'm flexible except for the first two steps there. Sorry, Cleon.
 

Cleon

Legend
I'd be happy enough to stick with zombies for the unfused version. We could always say "without the single action SQ" or whatever if we feel the need.

The bit about 2HD comes from the additive nature of HD postulated in this quote:

From a linear perspective, that makes a "2 undead" lost soul 2HD. However, let's remember that zombies now have a minimum of 2HD (except for weird corner cases like zombie grigs), so the 3.X version should probably have 2HD/undead component. My proposal is to have

Zombies had 2 Hit Dice in AD&D too, which is one reason I said I'd be OK with a 4 HD and 2 attack approach to a "basic lost soul".

single wanderer = human commoner zombie (2HD)
"lost soul" = 4HD with 2 components, still Medium
Large lost soul = 4 components, 8HD
Huge lost soul = 9 components, 18 HD
some appropriate advancement in between. But I'm flexible except for the first two steps there. Sorry, Cleon.

The wanderer will also need Absorb Corpse so it can become a Lost Soul, but that's pretty close to what I was thinking of, except I was thinking 16 HD for the Huge one since (a) the original caps at 8 attacks and (b) I'd rather stick to the standard double-HD for each size increase relationship.

However, we don't need a rigid HD to number of attack relationship.

Are we going to have them reach Gargantuan like the Undead Mass we are working on?

So, are we talking something like:

single wanderer = human commoner zombie (2HD) with Absorb Corpse
Medium lost soul = 4 HD with 2 attacks (2 zombies?)
Large lost soul = 8 HD with 4 attacks (4 zombies?)
Huge lost soul = 16 HD with 8 attacks (8 zombies?)
Gargantuan lost soul = 32 HD with 16 attacks (16 zombies?)

I am wondering whether we should modify the "increase HD by 2 per additional corpse" approach. That would mean a Huge or Gargantuan lost soul would be 1500 pounds, and a Gargantuan one with 16 zombies about 3000 pounds, that's a lot lighter than the standard 4000 and 32000 pound minimum weights for those sizes.

However, that would throw off the whole "merging lost souls just combine their Hit Dice" approach, so it's probably best if we just arbitrarily change the weights to something reasonable. Maybe they just make the extra flesh from Nightmare Stuff or something.

Single - 175 pounds
Medium (2 zombies) - 350 pounds
Large (4 zombies) - 700 pounds
Huge (8 zombies) - 1400 pounds. Min weight 4000 pounds = 23 zombies.
Gargantuan (16 zombies) - 2100 pounds. Min weight 16 tons = 182 zombies.
 

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