Converting monsters from the second edition Monstrous Compendiums

[LegacyKing]

Just trying to apply a little logic to a fantasy world Besides, it allows more ideas to come forth and give a fair shake at what we are trying to do...

The trend I see in the Monster Manuals is:
LA+3 have better combat abilities and can take a beating or they have superior magical abilities
LA+2 have a couple of unbalancing things whether combat or magic or superior skills
LA+1 has an ability above the norm like an Aasimars Resistance to three forms of energy

My point is for all the bells and whistles the little guys aren't heavy in any of the three categories. Their biggest thing is hiding. Combat they don't have, Magic they don't have, Superior ability to hide they do have, which in D&D isn't a big thing, unless you are trying to avoid things. (Typical party wouldn't do that)

I'm passionate about keeping things balanced... Like you both said, it keeps you honest. I actually enjoy the debate. Comparing Fey to Monstrous Humanoid is a bit lopsided agreed.

I'd even say LA+1 would be reasonable. On the comparison chart of LAs in my mind they aren't on par with Drow or Afflicted Lycanthropes or Ogres. Drow have increasing SR w/ innate spells; Afflicted Lycanthropes have DR and superior feats and Ogres have superior combat ability. In that arena of creatures I just can't see the kercpa as being all that. Even their Archery at -5 gives them a +2 to hit with the Arrow Swarm...

LA+1 - Superior Skills (hiding), above average racial saves (+2) and ability to do Arrow Swarm. They don't have innate resistances, they don't have innate magical abilities and they don't have any Damage Reduction.

Seriously, if you were a player given the choice of LA+2 creatures which do you think would be chosen the least?

On another note: Is climb strictly up/down or can it be side-to-side?

Thanks guys (Boz & Shade)...

 

[Shade]

I definitely wouldn't go lower than +2. They are actually much stronger in combat than is immediately apparent:

• Arrow Swarm: While they don't do much damage now, they have many ways to increase it. The LA has to cover not just entry-level. If one of these fellas takes Rapid Shot, it can get anywhere from 4 to 7 attacks per round. Archers are extremely lethal with just Rapid Shot alone, and in my experiences, hitting isn't usually too much of a problem, as they usually focus heavily on Dex, and many feats (such as Point Blank Shot) increase the attack modifiers.
• Speaking of Dex, they get a +8 racial bonus to it! This is huge, considering it will most likely be their prime stat, as their favored class is ranger and they focus on archery.
• Not only do they get Deflect Arrows (a nice feat) as a bonus feat, but they can use it better than other characters (twice per round).

If I were playing a ranger, or archer-style fighter, or rogue, I'd almost always pick these guys over a drow. Sure, the drow has rockin' spell resistance, but its ability score modifiers and spell-like abilities don't really benefit this ability.

In almost all situations, I think most people would pick the kercpa over the githyanki or githzerai as well, which both have poor spell resistance, far worse ability score adjustments, but a few decent spell-like abilities.

I'm glad you like the arcane archer bit. One of my players will almost certainly wish he could trade his current elven arcane archer for a kercpa one.

 

[BOZ]

Just trying to apply a little logic to a fantasy world

don't do that, you'll hurt your brain!

 

[BOZ]

you can hash out the LA however you like - it's one stat i usually don't care much about.

i can see why LegacyKing has a keen interest in the LA for this creature, since he intends to make one or more characters with levels. LA is a wonderful thing for balance, but it sucks to have to "dumb your character down" to fit in with other creatuers of his level.

one question - since it has that "trades the first HD for 1 level of X class" then is a 1st-level kercpa with LA +3 an ECL 3 or ECL 4? that makes a big difference you know...

 

[LegacyKing]

Boz: Logic is very perverse in fantasy... LOL. I try to use it in the absence of other rules. Yeah, I already have a player who has a Kercpa Cleric. His current strength lies in his mobility and spells.

Shade: Yeah, at higher levels things get pretty nasty, but so does any other character/creature. Our Kercpa needs to take PBS and then Rapid Shot. Which I would contend would equal out for any other high level character. Wow, I didn't realize the 7 shot factor...

So let's do a quick comparison between a 1st level human (I chose human for the extra Feat) and 1st level kercpa (both fighters):
Human takes PBS, Arrow Swarm and Rapid Shot. His Dex would be 18 (+4) and Str 15 (+2 damage) BAB+1 +4 Dex +0 Size Total=+5 Damage 1d8+2 Average Damage 5.5 per hit
7x5 =38 (Average chance of hitting)

Kercpa would trade out Track for PBS and Take Rapid Shot (He already has Arrow Swarm & Deflect Arrows) His Dex would be 26 (+8) and Str 11.
BAB+1 +8 Dex +2 Size = 11 to hit Damage 1d4 average 2.5 per hit
7x2 =17 (Higher chance of hitting)

I forgot to factor in PBS but since both have it I figure it cancels out...

So yeah the Kercpa has better to hit (+6 after the minuses so he'll hit more often but the damage is still low). I can see both LA+1 AND +2 it just depends on how you view the numbers.
Good points though. I try to not factor in what added classes will give since all characters and monsters get essentially the same benefits from class levels. Each recieved a feat every three levels and BAB increases, and stat increase every 4 levels.

Also, depending on how mean a GM is, magic tiny arrows aren't something you come across. So where normal archers can find magic arrows a Kercpa needs to commission those magic arrows. I think the cost would be approx. the same since the levels needed to enchant don't factor in size. I guess the real question is how much is that +11 (+6) to hit really worth vs. the increased damage for the lack of the hit bonus? Also many spells that affect projectiles only affect a limited amount, so the 7 attacks may not all get the benefit.

I guess in my mind we are walking a high LA+1 to Low LA+2. After all the abilities given to the kercpa remain the same except for level gains. They can climb naturally (Which nobody has answered the Climb Question and I'll add a few more along those lines) Can a Natural climber scale a wall and while holding on Attack or Cast? Is the Climb movement limited to up and down or can they go from side to side (Thereby overcoming their "walk" movement rate).

LA+1 Unbalanced Stats (Yes) Kercpa Strength
LA-1 Size (Yes)
LA+1 Climb (??? Not sure if I would agree) How does this dramatically affect the game?
LA+1 Racial Bonuses exceeding two (Yeah, I can agree) Course looking at a Weasel or Dog (if they could be a PC) would mean they automatically incur a LA+1

A Weasel would be a LA+2 by those rules (Size-1;Climb+1;Racial+1;Unbalaced Stats+1), course weasels are a very lousy comparison cause they don't shoot bows... But that is my fantasy logic for you...

Boz: LA adds to the current level. 1HD or 1st level are both considered 1+LA=ECL. So if you use the example of LA+3 then ECL would be 4. Drow begins play as a 3rd level character with the LA+2

Another overlooked thing is the character essentially begins play at the ECL with the appropriate amount of funds and experience.

I think there are many valid points for LA+1 just as there are many valid points for LA+2. I will be satisfied with LA+2 as you are the monster conversion specialists. Granted sometimes the WotC don't seem to follow their own rules for LA, but as Boz says it's the least number he is concerned with...

Yeah, I don't know to much about the Arcane Archer, but I figure it sounds cool. Elves get the cool stuff.

Thanks Shade - You are a great debater... Always a pleasure to get a well versed expert's knowledge of the rules and how they affect gameplay.

 

[BOZ]

you have all weekend to debate it. after this post, i won't be around the CC forums until at least sunday.

 

[Flynn01]

Further Kercpa - will the chittering pine-scented madness ever end?

Hi all,

I play the kercpa cleric in LegacyKing's campaign. I'm not a rogue, I'm not a ranger-archer. I've not found any magical *tiny* weapons, cloaks, rings, much less arrows.

I've been playtesting your kercpa suggestions through many iterations now. So a kercpa has the same LA as ogre and minotaur, drow and afflicted lycanthrope? That makes it fair when a first level kercpa cleric is partying with 3rd level characters? I have to say, it doesn't playtest that way.

One thing not mentioned in the conversion is the question of armor. Can kercpa wear armor? Are they limited to a Light? Do they suffer penalties in Heavy (Other than the ones heavy normally conveys)? One Kercpa decription said something to the effect that they don't wear armor. If they have armor restrictions and you give them a narural armor not even comparable to leather, then suggest (as was stated previously), that deserves LA+1 right there, that's pretty harsh.

Dont get me wrong, I enjoy my character. I like getting into Squirrel-like mischeif.

Nor am I trying to jockey for a 'break' or 'extras' in my campaign. I've never converted a race to 3.5 and I don't claim to know as much about the rules as *any* of you. I just wanted to share my observastions from a *beta* playtesting standpoint.

 

[BOZ]

thanks for the response! we can keep this conversion open for awhile; i don't mind.

if you haven't found any items sized for your PC, then bug your DM. cloaks, rings, and other wearable items are technically supposed to size themselves for your character regardless of your size unless your DM rules otherwise. weapons and armor, on the other hand, you're stuck with them as they are.

one thing to keep in mind: ogres and minotaurs for example have a higher ECL than a kerpca would, because ECL = LA + HD. don't know about drow off the top of my head. ECL should be what your character's level is based on, not LA alone.

as for armor... i didn't think of that. they *can* wear armor, but they generally don't. it interferes with their climbing and mobility, so anything with a penalty of -1 or worse would be something a normal kercpa wouldn't even consider wearing.

Nor am I trying to jockey for a 'break' or 'extras' in my campaign. I've never converted a race to 3.5 and I don't claim to know as much about the rules as *any* of you. I just wanted to share my observastions from a *beta* playtesting standpoint.

we don't get enough of that, and we appreciate it. i'm going to let Shade field the rest of your concerns.

 

[BOZ]

one other thing... i added that +1 natural armor only to make their AC comparable to the 2E stats. if it's more trouble than it's worth (and i'm beginning to suspect that it is), i have no problem with getting rid of it.

 

[Shade]

Sorry, I was gone all 3-day weekend, so I wasn't able to debate.

BOZ - I do agree that the natural armor should probably go away.

Flynn01, LegacyKing - Thanks for the continuing feedback. This is great.

I've looked 'em over again, and honestly, there is no way these guys can be +1 LA. Look at all the other +1 LA races, and none have stat modifiers so huge.

I realize that the kercpa does not make an optimal cleric. But neither does a half-orc, or a goliath, for that matter. Now look at a kercpa ranger, and compare it to other races:

3rd-level elven ranger: Dex +2, +3 ranger BAB. That's a total of +5 on ranged attack rolls.

3rd-level halfling ranger: Dex +2, +1 size, +3 ranger BAB. Total +6 ranged attack bonus.

1st-level kercpa ranger: Dex +8, +2 attack bonus for Tiny size, +1 ranger BAB. That's a +11 on ranged attacks rolls at 3rd-level equivalency! Using its arrow swarm ability, it can make three ranged attacks at +6 attack bonus. That is two more attacks that are as likely to hit as the halfling and more likely to hit than the elf.

So although the damage is slightly less than the halfling and far less than the elf, the frequency of hits should offset this. The WOTC designers have stated many times that attack bonus is far more important than damage bonus.

Now, it is unfortunate that LAs don't change based on class, as I will agree that the stats aren't quite as useful for a typical cleric. However, the +2 to Wis and +4 to Con are a definite benefit to any cleric.

BOZ - We should add typical domains for kercpa. I assume they'll worship elven deities, which would really benefit kercpa clerics as many of the elven deities have longbow as a favored weapon. A few even have the war domain which gives free Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with the favored weapon.

Oh, and for the Climb question earlier:

Climb: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

Check: With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, a wall, or some other steep incline (or even a ceiling with handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed. A slope is considered to be any incline at an angle measuring less than 60 degrees; a wall is any incline at an angle measuring 60 degrees or more.

You need both hands free to climb, but you may cling to a wall with one hand while you cast a spell or take some other action that requires only one hand. While climbing, you can’t move to avoid a blow, so you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You also can’t use a shield while climbing.

So, essentially, a kercpa must use both hands to climb, but it can stop at any point and hang on and use one hand for something else. In most cases, the kercpa would want to climb to a ledge where it can snipe with its bow, since the bow can't be used one-handed. A hand crossbow would work, though, as would a light crossbow (with a small penalty). It can move side-to-side as well as up-and-down.

I hope all this helps clarify things for you guys.