Converting Oriental Adventures creatures

[Cleon]

Hmmm, here's a proposal that doesn't quite get into the mess of the grapple rules.

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an opponent with a +X bonus without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt succeeds, however, the opponent's weapon is not disarmed but tangled in the Maiden's veils until the Maiden releases the weapon or the opponent succeeds at an opposed Dexterity check against the Maiden. If the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. Veiled Maidens may also attempt normal disarm actions with no bonus while provoking attacks of opportunity.

Hmm, that's a good start.

I'd think the opponent should be able to free their weapon with a Strength check [to burst free], an attack roll [to finesse free through weapon skill] or an Escape Artist check [since it is basically tangling up an opponent].

Secondly, I'd think the Veiled Maidens should be able to attempt to Disarm the opponent subsequently without provoking an AoO.

Third, shouldn't the opponent suffer Entangled penalties?

Hmm, the Veiled Maidens can probably also entangle opponents normally with their Veils, and ought to be able to Trip them.

I'll have to think about this...

 

[freyar]

I don't think the opponent should take all the penalties for being entangled, maybe just have to release the weapon or take some minor penalties (can't do anything with the weapon hand, including somatic components, etc). I would leave grappling, tripping, etc, as separate abilities.

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an opponent with a +X bonus without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt succeeds, however, the opponent's weapon is not disarmed but tangled in the Maiden's veils until the Maiden releases the weapon or the opponent succeeds at [an opposed Dexterity check against the Maiden, DC X Str check to rip the veil, Escape Artist check, the opponent drops the weapon, etc]. If the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an entangled weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity; if the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. Veiled Maidens may also attempt normal disarm actions with no bonus while provoking attacks of opportunity. An opponent may not perform motions (including somatic components) with a hand or other appendage holding an entangled weapon.

I think we mostly need to work out the red bit. I'm not sure I like the attack roll, but I like the other options fairly well. It's all negotiable, though. Also, should we let them entangle wands, staffs, etc, also?

 

[Cleon]

I don't think the opponent should take all the penalties for being entangled, maybe just have to release the weapon or take some minor penalties (can't do anything with the weapon hand, including somatic components, etc). I would leave grappling, tripping, etc, as separate abilities.

I could understand them not taking the "half speed, cannot run or charge" penalty for being entangled, but I think the entangled victim ought to have the penalties to attacks/Dex and "must make Concentration check to cast spell" unless they choose to drop the weapon.

I think we mostly need to work out the red bit. I'm not sure I like the attack roll, but I like the other options fairly well. It's all negotiable, though. Also, should we let them entangle wands, staffs, etc, also?

I'd think a magical implement is pretty much a weapon as far as this ability is concerned, so they ought to be able to entangle one.

 

[freyar]

Let's sort out what we want:

I don't think attacks with the opposite hand should take penalties or necessarily AC or Dex-based checks. I'm also not sure about Concentration checks. I guess I could go either way on a lot of the grappling penalties. And I guess we need to spell out what the penalties are.

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an opponent with a +X bonus without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt succeeds, however, the opponent's weapon (or other implement, such as a wand or staff) is not disarmed but tangled in the Maiden's veils until the Maiden releases the weapon or the opponent succeeds at [an opposed Dexterity check against the Maiden, DC X Str check to rip the veil, Escape Artist check, the opponent drops the weapon, etc]. If the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an entangled weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity; if the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. An opponent may not perform motions, including attacks or somatic components, with a hand or other appendage holding an entangled weapon. Veiled Maidens may also attempt normal disarm actions with no bonus while provoking attacks of opportunity.

Is that enough of a penalty for you? I'm trying to keep things simple.

 

[Cleon]

Let's sort out what we want:

I don't think attacks with the opposite hand should take penalties or necessarily AC or Dex-based checks. I'm also not sure about Concentration checks. I guess I could go either way on a lot of the grappling penalties. And I guess we need to spell out what the penalties are.

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an opponent with a +X bonus without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt succeeds, however, the opponent's weapon (or other implement, such as a wand or staff) is not disarmed but tangled in the Maiden's veils until the Maiden releases the weapon or the opponent succeeds at [an opposed Dexterity check against the Maiden, DC X Str check to rip the veil, Escape Artist check, the opponent drops the weapon, etc]. If the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. A Veiled Maiden may attempt to disarm an entangled weapon without provoking an attack of opportunity; if the attempt fails, the opponent may not attempt to disarm the Veiled Maiden in reaction. An opponent may not perform motions, including attacks or somatic components, with a hand or other appendage holding an entangled weapon. Veiled Maidens may also attempt normal disarm actions with no bonus while provoking attacks of opportunity.

Is that enough of a penalty for you? I'm trying to keep things simple.

Let's look back to the original description:

Entangle Weapon: This is normal entangle attack, but if successful the opponent cannot use his weapon unless he makes a strength save at a +5 penalty to pull it free.
​

The attack specifies that it is a "normal entangle attack", suggesting we should use those rules and add on a special effect vis-à-vis the weapon.

It's pretty similar to a net, so we should cadge some of the writeup of that.

How's this:

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maidens can ensnare an enemy of up to Large size by succeeding at a ranged touch attack. The enemy becomes entangled and can move only within the limits that the veil allows (its X ft. reach). If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC X Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.

Furthermore, if the enemy is carrying a weapon (or similar object, like an instrument or wand) the veil binds the weapon and prevents the enemy from attacking with it. If the enemy wield multiple weapons, the Maidens can only entangle one of them, which she must choose when making the attack.

The entangled enemy can escape the Maidens' veil by making a DC Y+N Escape Artist check (or DC Z+N Strength check) as a full round action. If their roll missed the target but passed a DC Y Escape Artist check (or DC Z Strength check), the enemy remains entangled but frees their weapon and can attack with it on subsequent actions. The enemy or an ally of theirs can also cut the veil (AC A, hardness B*, hp C) with a slashing weapon. This frees the entangled enemy, but the veil immediately reforms.

*This hardness is due to the Maidens' steel cloth ability.

 

[freyar]

Uhh, what's a "normal entangle attack" in whatever edition these came from? I'm not seeing that this really corresponds to the entangle spell or even necessarily a net. But, that said, I can go for something similar to what you have. I'd like the victim to be able to escape by dropping the weapon, I'd rather the victim not be able to use somatic components (either in addition to or instead of the Concentration check), and I think it should be harder to establish than a touch attack. Oh, and since the attack is specifically entangling the weapon, I don't think a failed attempt to break out should disentangle the weapon but not the opponent. At the very least, it should be a melee attack since the veils aren't that long, I think. What about this as a compromise?

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maidens can ensnare an enemy of up to Large size by succeeding at a melee touch attack. The enemy becomes entangled and can move only within the limits that the veil allows (its X ft. reach). The entangle creature cannot cast spells with somatic components, it must make a DC X Concentration check when attempting to cast any spell or lose the spell or spell slot.

Furthermore, if the enemy is carrying a weapon (or similar object, like an instrument or wand) the veil binds the weapon and prevents the enemy from attacking with it (or using the object). If the enemy wields multiple weapons, the Maidens can only entangle one of them, which she must choose when making the attack.

The entangled enemy can escape the Maidens' veil by making a DC Y+N Escape Artist check (or DC Z+N Strength check) as a full round action. The enemy or an ally of theirs can also cut the veil (AC A, hardness B*, hp C) with a slashing weapon. This frees the entangled enemy, but the veil immediately reforms.

*This hardness is due to the Maidens' steel cloth ability.

I'm also starting to wonder if Multiple Actions is a bit much with an ability like this. Entangling 7 enemies at once would be pretty bad.

 

[Cleon]

Uhh, what's a "normal entangle attack" in whatever edition these came from? I'm not seeing that this really corresponds to the entangle spell or even necessarily a net. But, that said, I can go for something similar to what you have.

Well that's the problem, isn't it. OA2 is a first edition AD&D module that uses the Oriental Adventures hardback's rules, but there's no "normal entangle" special maneuver in that book's Martial Arts rules.

The only specific rules for "entangle" attacks I can find in the core 1E rules regard magic items and spells (e.g. entangle and the rope of entanglement), both of which render entangled victims helplessly immobile. The Monster Manual says that Shambling Mounds can entangle a victim they hit with both attacks, but it doesn't give rules for what that entanglement actually means.

I'd like the victim to be able to escape by dropping the weapon, I'd rather the victim not be able to use somatic components (either in addition to or instead of the Concentration check), and I think it should be harder to establish than a touch attack. Oh, and since the attack is specifically entangling the weapon, I don't think a failed attempt to break out should disentangle the weapon but not the opponent. At the very least, it should be a melee attack since the veils aren't that long, I think. What about this as a compromise?

We seem to be heading at this SA from opposite directions, don't we. I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be an "entangled plus weapon trapped" ability, not just a "ensnare weapon" ability.

There already is a 1E OA maneuver that traps an opponent's weapon and can be escaped by simply dropping the weapon - it's called Weapon Catch. If the writers of OA2 wanted it to work like that they'd have just used that manoeuvre, not created a new "special attack". (Incidentally, although it's called "Weapon Catch", that OA maneuver allows the attacker to catch an opponent's limb instead of their weapon.)

There's nothing in the original description about being able to escape the entanglement by simply letting go of the weapon, so I don't favor the "drop your sword and you're free as a bird" approach you propose.

The original description of the "Entangle Weapon" special ability specifies the opponent can free their weapon by making a strength save, but it doesn't say whether that also frees them from the "normal entangle attack" - whatever the heck that's supposed to mean. I can accept it can go either way, but would prefer to keep it so the victim can be "regular entangled" or "entangled plus bound weapon/limb" as it adds more variety to the combat.

Still, if necessary to break the impasse I'd be OK with it being an "all or nothing" escape. We still have to decide what action this requires. I'm visualizing the effects as being similar to an animate rope spell (since it's an animated veil), which requires a full-round action to escape from. I considered adding a "lesser escape option" to free only their weapon arm as a standard action (like escaping from a grapple), but that seemed over complicated.

Preventing the target using spells with somatic components would be OK by me, and I agree it ought to be a melee touch attack. I'd rather not make it a melee attack, though.

I'm also starting to wonder if Multiple Actions is a bit much with an ability like this. Entangling 7 enemies at once would be pretty bad.

They're supposed to be a dangerous challenge to an entire party. They need to be able to multi-engage opponents to be effective. It should be possible to tweak the damage/break DC/escape action so that they're not overwhelming.

 

[Cleon]

Preventing the target using spells with somatic components would be OK by me,

Upon reflection, since I would like this to be based on a "normal entangle attack" that suggests we could keep the standard entanglement's Concentration checks to cast spells but make the DC higher for somatic component spells.

Presumably we'd be aiming for something between casting while entangled in a net and casting while grappled:

Net
If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a DC 15 Concentration check or be unable to cast the spell.
If You’re Grappling
You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Maybe have them only be able to cast standard action or less spells, Concentration DC 20 if somatic components, otherwise DC 15?

 

[freyar]

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if the designers just forgot that they'd made a "weapon catch" ability. Fits TSR's (and WotC's) MO; not that I can blame them with different designers working on different books.

Anyway, the proposal in my previous post isn't too far from what we're talking about. What changes would you make?

 

[Cleon]

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if the designers just forgot that they'd made a "weapon catch" ability. Fits TSR's (and WotC's) MO; not that I can blame them with different designers working on different books.

Anyway, the proposal in my previous post isn't too far from what we're talking about. What changes would you make?

Well I still prefer an approach that allows a "partial escape" like in my previous post, although I like some of the changes in wording.

Also, regarding the "multiple maidens" issue, I'm thinking that if several of the Maidens' bodies entangle the same opponent they should be able to entangle multiple weapons and probably add a circumstance bonus to the DCs of the escape attempts and possibly the Concentration checks.

Something like this, perhaps:

Entangle Weapon (Ex): A Veiled Maidens can ensnare an enemy of up to Large size by succeeding at a melee touch attack with its veil. The enemy becomes entangled and can only move within the limits of the veil's W ft. reach. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, they must succeed at a Concentration check or the spell fails (DC 15?, or DC 20? for spells with a Somatic component).

Furthermore, if the enemy is carrying a weapon (or similar implement, like an instrument or wand) the veil binds the weapon and prevents the enemy from attacking with it or otherwise using the object. If the enemy wields multiple implements, the Maidens can only entangle one of them for each veil they hit with, and must choose what weapon they entangle when making the attack.

The entangled enemy can escape the Maidens' veil by making a DC Y Escape Artist check (or DC Z Strength check) as a full round action.

If we're keeping the "partial escape clause" the above becomes:
The entangled enemy can escape the Maidens' veil by making a DC Y+N Escape Artist check (or DC Z+N Strength check) as a full round action. If their roll missed the target but passed a DC Y Escape Artist check (or DC Z Strength check), the enemy remains entangled but frees their weapon and can attack with it on subsequent actions.
​

If the Veiled Maidens is using multiple bodies to entangle an opponent with more than one veil, the enemy only needs to make a single Escape Artist or Strength check to escape, but the DC to escape is increased by the number of veils entangling them (e.g. +3 DC for being entangled in three veils).

The enemy, or an ally of theirs, can also cut the veil(s) (AC A, hardness B*, hp C) with a slashing weapon. This frees the entangled enemy from that veil, but the veil immediately reforms.

*This hardness is due to the Maidens' steel cloth ability.