D&D 5E Convince me we're doing the Warlock wrong

[JackOfAllTirades]

Agreed. They should have publicly playtested all the classes. It's not a bad skeleton (and is in fact what I would use for a warlord), but it feels like a lot of dead levels and many of the invocations are just terrible.

I just want to point out that the Warlock has exactly zero "dead levels" due to their excellent retraining opportunities. Every single time they level up, a Warlock can replace an old spell with a new one of the highest spell level they can cast, as well as replacing an old invocation with any new invocation they qualify for at their new level. So if there's something that isn't working out like you expected, or a spell that used to work at lower levels, but not so much at higher ones, or you need to free up a slot for something better, or you thought of an awesome idea for a combo next level... whatever.

I'm hard pressed to think of any other class with that kind of per-level retraining flexibility. As short as his spell list is, my 7th level Warlock has just as many 3rd and 4th level spells as our party's Wizard because I've continually retrained lower level spells for higher ones. (In addition to new spells learned at each level.) I think I'm finally about to fall behind. And of course, my 1st and 2nd level spells are mostly gone. I kept Hex and Suggestion, cuz I'm not crazy.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Spoken like someone who's never actually played a warlock long term. Have you?

Have you played a warlock multiclass?

Also, sell me on being a single class warlock! After you've dropped your 2 spells, what do you do to contribute?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I just want to point out that the Warlock has exactly zero "dead levels" due to their excellent retraining opportunities.

You are correct, it was poorly worded. However they don't get MUCH in many levels, whereas a full caster at least gets a new slot and frequently more.

I think I'm finally about to fall behind. And of course, my 1st and 2nd level spells are mostly gone. I kept Hex and Suggestion, cuz I'm not crazy.

Scorching ray seems like another keeper, if infernal.

 

[famousringo]

New invocations :
Icy Skewer: If you hit with your pact blade your opponent has disadvantage on attacks against you until the end of your next turn.
Piercing Shard: Your attack with your pact blade does additional frost and psychic damage equal to your charisma modifier if you hit. You are considered invisible to the target until the start of your next turn. You may not use this invocation again until you complete a rest.
Soul Eater: Once per turn your attack with your pact blade does necrotic damage.
Blazing Doom of the Void: Your attack with your pact place does additional fire and necrotic damage equal to your charisma modifier if you hit. You gain advantage on your next attack against that target. You may not use this again until you complete a rest.

I really like the idea of weapon cantrips. Little curses that a bladelock can work in with attacks that debuff the target much like Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp.

Yeah, it's a lot like paladin smites, but of course one spellwarrior will play like another. I think there's enough room to give a bladelock a distinctive flavour and set of tricks. The debuffs could improve the warlock's survivability on the front line, and provide the kind of every round control that Repelling Blast offers.

 

[Delandel]

I see the Warlock as a magical archer. "Gish" I guess? And they do it right.

You've got your magical superbow. Does good damage, force lets you bypass most resistances that regular bows would struggle with. Then you've got your spells. Restrictive? Yes, absolutely, but you're not a pure spellcaster, you're a magical archer. The good news is that these spells are GOOD and come right on time. You will want to use them. Compare it to the magic that other magical martials get access to, the Paladin, Ranger, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight -- it's looking pretty good, right? Finally the class is rounded out with abilities from your patron and invocations.

Looks solid to me. Yeah, it sucks that Agonizing Blast is pretty much an invocation tax. It shouldn't be, but if you change it then make it so Eldritch Blast scales by warlock level not total so people aren't picking it up easy with a feat or High Elf. I'd also consider having Pact of the Blade automatically gaining Extra Attack at 5th instead of being an invocation tax there too.

But the rest? It's really solid. Lots of customization, really good at-will, powerful spells, interesting and strong patrons / invocations. You just have to realize that you are NOT a wizard / cleric, you are a blend of martial and spells. If you want to pewpew with a wide variety of spells, pick something else.

 

[Mirtek]

After you've dropped your 2 spells, what do you do to contribute?

You eldritch blast for good damage? Or is the barbarian not contributing because he's always hitting enemies with his greataxe

 

[JackOfAllTirades]

You are correct, it was poorly worded. However they don't get MUCH in many levels, whereas a full caster at least gets a new slot and frequently more.



Scorching ray seems like another keeper, if infernal.

I went with Archfey, which also has good "extras" on its spell list. I got Blink at 5th level, and I just got Greater Invisibility at 7th. Gonna make LOTS of attacks with advantage using that one. Archfey gives Fiendish some competition for best Blade Pact Warlock.

Another note: I've found racial choice makes a big difference for Warlocks, and Tieflings are awesome. Aside from their Charisma bonus, they get an extra Cantrip which isn't on the Warlock list at all (Thaumaturgy) and extra daily spells at 3rd and 5th level which are very useful. (Too bad their Hellish Rebuke doesn't scale with level; guess you can't have everything.)

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

You eldritch blast for good damage? Or is the barbarian not contributing because he's always hitting enemies with his greataxe

No, he is! My point was, what can you do as a single class warlock that's worth giving up the stuff you get from multiclassing. Warlock is somewhat front loaded, thanks to agonizing blast being available early and eldritch blast using character levels. You can take 2-3 levels of warlock, and get a ton more toys by leaving the class. Having a daily spell list in addition to your two short recharge spells helps you out in scenarios that don't lend themselves to frequent short rests.

Again, I think the warlock is functional, just not terribly well designed in that its upper tier abilities aren't very tempting and its high level invocations are pretty weak. 11 is also simply too long to wait for a 3rd spell slot.

 

[kerbarian]

Again, I think the warlock is functional, just not terribly well designed in that its upper tier abilities aren't very tempting and its high level invocations are pretty weak. 11 is also simply too long to wait for a 3rd spell slot.

I hadn't really thought about it that way... but adding the 3rd spell slot at, say, 5th level would go a long way towards fixing things IMO. Of course, my experience is that short rests are more often 1/day than 2-3/day and that the "important" combats tend to come clustered together instead of with a short rest in between.

Really, even giving the warlock one extra daily spell slot would get most of the way there -- an extra something you can pull out when you need it, rather than being in your second encounter and having to ask whether you can cast Hex again and leave yourself without any flexibility in case there's another important combat coming.

 

[Celtavian]

Which I suspect would lead to brokenness. Already, we've got the Sorlock that abuses the way pact magic and eldritch blast work to be far more powerful than any other caster in the game. If you made all the warlock work the same way, we're moving into potential abuse territory.

Do whatever you want at your tables, but I hardly think that's the intent of the game.

They made more than a few mistakes like Sharpshooter and GWM as well as the weak Sorcerer and Ranger. It's hard to balance so many balls in the air at once. I'm quite capable of determining the mathematical effectiveness of a build. If I find the warlock/fighter with lifedrinker to be a greater problem than say the fighter/battlemaster GWM or sharpshooter archer, I'll change it. At the moment it is looking like a possible option to make Lifedrinker attractive for someone to take rather than something that no one would ever take for other than style reasons. Weapon warlock is undesirable at the moment and extremely weak as other than a multiclass. That means Lifedrinker will never be used as other than a multiclass.

How does the Sorlock abuse Pact Magic? Eldritch blast works because cantrips work as they work: off character level. This is confirmed by the developers.

The Sorlock uses Metamagic and eldritch blast. Why does Pact magic matter?