core problem: duelist

[lottrbacchus]

In anticipation for Pirates 3, I just got done watching The Black Pearl and Dead Man's Chest. Then I decided that I absolutely had to roll up an eccentric swashbuckler for my players to meet (even though they are in a landlocked country).

Now, I do really appreciate a bit of style to go along with power gaming, but what is the point of a duelist? Yes they can get super duper improved initiative, but pretty much everything else can be achieved or bettered by a straight up fighter. Uncanny intelligence for ac? Why not uncannily wear a magic mithril shirt? Even a non-magical shirt gives me, what, +4 ac so I'd have to bump my 16 int to 18 to match that. And the extra d6 of damage is only if I forgo using two weapons. Grace=Lightning Reflexes. I could probably stack them, but were I to take fighter levels instead of this "prestige" class, I'd have much more flexibility in choosing feats.

While my duelist is having to chose to give up 2 weapon fighting to get precise strike, his elven buddy is shooting all arrows at +3 and the shadow dancer can dimension door 20 feet through shadows and defensive roll when the going gets tough. Oh, and the shadow dancer got a shadow buddy when the duelist got +4 ac when not wearing armor for AoO. As I mentioned, the mithril shirt sort of covers that +4 ac in ALL circumstances, not just AoO.

Summary: Duelist is a cool idea, but is essentially pointless as far as I can tell unless the DM has ruled that the material plane is a nudist colony.

 

[Technik4]

The duelist shines in a city setting, particularly one in which intrigue is an important aspect. In that type of campaign one does not always have armor on, but a rapier at your belt is there.

I do really appreciate a bit of style to go along with power gaming

The duelist wasn't designed for you. Not every class is equal.

 

[jasin]

Well, the duelist isn't exactly a melee powerhouse, but it does have it's perks.

You get more skills than a fighter.

You get +2d6 against anything vulnerable to criticals.

You get the ability to fight defensively for -4 attacks to attacks and +10 to +13 to AC! Which is a really strangely placed ability, since it scales 1-for-1 with levels, and you get it at 7th, so you go from +0 to +7... but once you get it, your AC can become pretty amazing.

The Int to AC without armour is pretty useless unless you have really huge Int, but it might come up in the type of situations where you might expect the duelist to shine, like, y'know, duels in social settings. When you're at a dinner and you get insulted, you might be thankful for that extra +2 over your non-duelist opponent. But then, you might also just wear a mithral chain shirt under your clothes, or have it glamered or something, so yeah, canny defense isn't all that.

 

[Slaved]

The intelligence bonus works nicely with a monks belt as well. Just get a decent wisdom and intelligence. Every fighters dream!

Monks belt, high wisdom and intelligence, and maybe even mage armor.

 

[Raspen]

nothing wrong with focusing on AC at 7 lvl the get 7 to their ac on top of int dex and gear

take a lvl 16 duelest with max no epic ac

bracers of armor 8
amulet of NA 5
ring of pro 5
dodge 1
imp combat exp 16
class 10
defence fighting 2
base ac 10
weopen of def 5
dex to ac X
Int to ac Y

so that gives you 62+X+Y add gord and well you make very intresting tank now i know that you wont have all the items but give or take a few ac hear and thier and its still good AC

thats Flare get that out of a armor totting juggernot

 

[nittanytbone]

On the WOTC Char-Op boards, Duelists are widely regarded as fairly useless as far as PrCs go.

I'd suggest checking out the Swashbuckler Class from Complete Warrior. It used to be only viable for a 3 level dip, but there's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that lets you stack rogue and swashbuckler levels for some purposes.

One of my favorite introductory builds for a nimble dual-wielder:

Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Swash 3

Rogue gets you trapfinding, skills, and SA; Ranger gets you favored enemy, skills (search, outdoors stuff, some knowledges), track (or Urban Track for you social types), and TWF; Swash gets you Weapon Finesse, skills (tumble), and INT to Damage.

 

[Darklone]

If you're not stuck with the core books:
Duelist might be interesting if you enter the class as a Swashbuckler/Monk with better than point buy stats. You'll get dex, int and wis to AC, can wear bracers of armor or get Mage armor cast on you till you can afford the bracers, your int increases your damage and you CAN go TWF with the monks IUS.

If you add rogue, you might get a wand of Mage armor yourself and with the Daring Outlaw feat you'll have at least +3d6 sneak attack... as a monk2/swash3/rog3 then heading for duelist. Hmm. If I'd only somehow manage to squeeze some fighter levels in there to qualify for melee weapon mastery with the Daring Warrior feat...
The rogue/monk combo feat Ascetic rogue added into the mix will increase your chances to stun someone with your left jab.

Hmm. Nice char. The only thing he's missing is some way to get more feats.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I don't know if you've access to Monte Cooks Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, but I've heard people say nice things about the 'unfettered' class.

HOWEVER,

Personally, I think that the best light armoured, stylish fighter *should* be a fighter - I'd like to see more feats that enabled a clever, charismatic fighter to hold his own against a strong tough fighter. At the moment the core has plenty of feats for strong fighters and some good ones for intelligent fighters (expertise/improved trip/disarm) but doesn't really have anything for charismatic fighters.

Introduce some good feats for charismatic fighters and I think you'd be good to go.

The other classic option for a duellist character is the rogue of course - the lightly armoured, agile fighter, tumbling all over the shop, uncannily dodging and bluffing his opponent and getting in nasty well-placed shots with his rapier. Boost the Con to improve his hit points (and staying power), use some SRD feats like Cloak Dance to give him some style and mechanical bonuses (a miss chance in that case), use his charisma skills of bluff and perform for style - you know what I mean.

Although 'everyone knows' that rogue != thief, it is surprising how often I've seen them played in just that fashion!

Cheers

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Because if you are jumping between shadows or firing bows, you are not dueling.

The class isn't based on dungeon crawling or battles or sneaking. It's based on an unarmored one on one combat with light weapons between oponents who are aware of each other.

If you want the npc to be good at dueling, with dueling his perfered sport, then the duelist is the class that you want to use.

If you are worried about his effectiveness in any other situation, then don't use it.

If you are worried about game mechanics instead of flavor, don't use it. I'll hazard to guess that this is your true issue with the class, as well as the issue for those "persons on other boards" who think that the class is usless or has no point. The point of the class is to give players who like to play duelist a class that matches that flavor.

If you don't like linking flavor with mechanics, then just build the npc as a fighter rogue and give him a pirate accent.

 

[lottrbacchus]

Thanks QGM and all. I think I'm going to have to hunt down swashbuckler, since it sounds like what I'm after. The monk problem is that 'lawful' bit.

I was just shocked at how weak the duelist seems at low levels. Someone suggested a 16th level non-epic Duelist. Perhaps it's because I'm hurrying a bit between morning shift and afternoon shift, but I can't quite figure out how to qualify for Duelist and then add 16 levels and not top 20th level.

Never mind that in my exact case, as said character needs to be in the 10th-11th total levels area.

Am considering tweaking the Monk or just looking at various combinations of Ranger, Fighter, and Rogue (as others suggested).