Tony Vargas
Legend
Yes. Better than HotDQ. Yes - in AL, if your character at Apprentice Tier he just comes back next session, anyway, so no worries.
No, starting at 3rd level is a fine idea.
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D&D 5E CoS: Thoughts on starting at level 1 with Death House or level 3 on main adventure?
- Thread starter haqattaqq
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Mouseferatu
Hero
No. In a novel, it might be. In a game? You always include several times the number of clues the story would actually need in novel form, because your players are not going to pick up on all of them. As soon as they do pick up on them, you can cut any of the remaining ones so it doesn't seem excessive.
thanks for the feedback everyone! I think we'll go straight to level 3 and the main story. I'd rather have a shorter campaign than a longer one since we bailed out half way through OotA as the characters were a bit fatigued with the underdark. If we make this one relatively short then we'll probably head back to the underdark afterwards.
evilbob
Explorer
What a great write-up, thank you! So it looks like all your PCs made it out alive - nicely done. So far that's 2 for ~6 reported sessions where there were no PC casualties.
The bait and switch sounds awesome since it sounds like it was done just right.
At the risk of thread-snatching I'm very curious to know how this went! Did you play it as-written? How did they even defeat that encounter? Did the baddies just slip into the ethereal at the end to escape? (If we don't want to put too many spoilers in this thread please feel free to PM me!)
Savage Wombat
Hero
Moi aussi. We had another conversation elsewhere about whether the windmill as-written is waaaaaaaaaay too high level for 3rd-4th level PCs.
I'm really looking forward to this encounter when my parties reach it... because I want to make it explicit to everyone that this particular campaign is not about just going around killing everything in sight, but rather talking with people, negotiating, repartee, are all legitimate (if not out-and-out better) options when dealing with the denizens of Barovia. So I want them to go there and talk with the coven, figure out what they want and what the party can and can't do... make deals as necessary to solve their issues, rather than just show up, draw weapons, and attack. I just did my "stab first ask questions later" campaign... I want to change it up with them this time. And if they show up there right after Death House and try to just bum-rush the three hags... hopefully they'll learn their lesson pretty quickly.
Lancelot
Adventurer
SPOILERS
...
So, firstly, the party was 6x 3rd level PCs, and they had a good balance of classes. Barbarian, fighter, monk, druid, cleric, warlock. All experienced gamers with competent builds (not optimized, but still pretty good). No magic items at all. Not even a potion of healing. I tend towards low magic in all my campaigns, and in Ravenloft especially. The barbarian had a silver short sword (picked up in Death House), but that's it. They only found some of the magic items in Death House (the scrolls in the hidden library room), and refused to take them because they considered the scrolls belonged to the kids (Rose and Thorn)!
So, under-equipped party... but over-sized. Six PCs instead of four; no magic weapons or potions. Fortunately, they knew what they were getting into. They had observed Morganthe in town, and knew she was snatching kids. So, there was no "knock on the door and have a chat with the nice old lady". They knew it would be a combat, so positioned themselves accordingly. They kicked in the door and started ransacking the ground floor. They kicked over the cauldron and, for effect, I had the dretch demon "spill" out of it. Of course, a single dretch is easy meat for a party this size and it died in the first round.
At this point, Morganthe appeared at the top of the stairs. I ruled that it took her a double-move (i.e. she "burned" her first round) simply getting into position; primarily because I knew it was still going to be a hellaciously difficult fight. This gave every PC a chance to act before she dropped the hammer. Now, most of the characters are melee types who were actually going to have difficulty ascending the stairs and attacking in the first round (stairs = difficult terrain, and they didn't have the speed to close with a single move). However, the druid had an answer for this: thorn whip. He tagged Morganthe and pulled her off the stairs. That brought her rapidly down to ground level (with +1d6 falling damage, and prone as well). The melee types immediately piled in... finding to their dismay that she had resistance to all their non-magical attacks. Also, a really decent AC. The barbarian switched to his silver weapon and raged. They began to realize this would be a lethal fight.
Still going gentle on the group, I opened with a claw attack against the nearest combatant... and missed. Lucky for him. 3rd level monks don't have great HP. They hit her a few more times, but she had a ton of HP (and still taking 1/2 damage from most attacks). The cleric's sacred flame cantrip wasn't working against her magic resistance either. But that's when the warlock shines. He dropped the inevitable hex / eldritch blast combo, with the invocation that allows him to add Cha bonus to damage. Suddenly, Morganthe is getting tagged every round (good attack rolls) for 1d10+1d6+3 force damage, with no resistance. Ouch.
And then things got really bad for her. The druid dropped moonbeam. 2d10 radiant damage per round, save for half. Magic resistance, right? But night hags have the shapechanger property, which means they roll saves against moonbeam at disadvantage. The two cancelled out, and she was now taking (basically) an average of "ongoing 10 damage", plus the warlock's hexed blasts, plus a bunch of meatshields pounding on her.
The gloves now come off. As she's part of a coven, she has all the coven spells. I could've counterspelled the moonbeam, but I thought that'd be a cheap shot given how few slots a 3rd level druid has available, and how proud the player was that he remembered it was extra-good against shapechangers. However, it didn't stop me from hitting back with heavy stuff. The druid copped a phantasmal killer - failed first save, but made the second. Thanks to WotC errata (subsequent saves are made at the end of the PCs turn, after they take the damage) he took 4d10 psychic. That dropped him from max to 1 hp. It also broke his concentration on the moonbeam. The following round, two of the fighter-types took a lightning bolt. This was a rude surprise for the raging barbarian, who took full damage from the spell. The party fighter was dropped (healed the following round).
By this time, though, Morganthe was pretty hacked up. She got off one more attack, then succumbed to the damage. The party breathed a sigh of relief. The fighter received a cure wounds to get him back on his feet, and they prepared to loot the room.
Then the other two hags appeared at the top of the stairs. No short rest (important - keep the pressure on!), no time to muck around. At this point, my players requested a quick break to change into their back-up brown trousers. They had just spent seven rounds beating down one hag, and had burned more than half their spell slots (and a lot of hp). They were in real trouble now.
Again, I cut them a small break in that the hags didn't attack in the first round. Every PC had a chance to act before they started laying it down. With one hag dead, the others no longer had access to coven spells... but they still had their own innate night hag spells. They opened with sleep (surprisingly useful against low level parties), and knocked out the injured fighter. Then it was a mix of magic missiles and claw attacks. The magic missile was the biggest problem for the PCs, because it's absolutely reliable. No mages in the party, so no shield spells. Also, to really keep the pressure on, I was splitting missiles and focusing on injured PCs. Example: put one missile on any spellcaster using a Concentration spell, and the other two to wear down the hp of a meatshield. If someone gets dropped and then healed, put 1-2 missiles on the newly-healed PC (to knock them other again) and the other missiles on fresh targets.
This combination proved brutal. At any time the magic missiles (or sleeps) looked like they would cause a TPK, I'd switch to claws for a round or two, just to balance the danger level. The claws, at least, had a chance of missing (and frequently did). But it was still touch-and-go. By the end of the combat, the barbarian had used both rages, the monk had used all ki points, and every caster had used every spellslot. 2 characters ended the fight unconscious and bleeding out (and had to be manually stabilized). 5 spellslots had been burned to "kick up" fallen PCs, who usually ended up back down again quickly because of my magic missile tactics.
At the end of the combat, two things had been achieved: the players were sweating profusely at the implied lethality of the encounter, and they were celebrating like maniacs for having beaten it without PC deaths. We run a high casualty count in our campaigns. We play frequently (1.5 x 5 hour sessions per week), and the group has lost over 80 characters (permanent deaths) since 5e came out. They knew this one could have easily ended in a TPK.
...
So why didn't it? A couple of reasons, from the DM's perspective.
1) They had numbers (six PCs) and that's an enormous help. It means an extra few spellslots, or an extra Help action, or another round of nova damage when the fighter burns his Action Surge and goes to town. Given the choice between a few magic items in the party... or an extra level for each PC... or 1-2 more warm bodies... you always pick the warm bodies. Numbers count.
2) I intentionally split the hag encounters, and didn't allow the second pair to enter until the first was dead. Fighting all three at once would have been a guaranteed TPK against a 3rd level party with no items. Also, I intentionally spent the hags' opening round making their appearance, rather than moving and immediately casting a spell. This gave the PCs time to react.
3) I mixed in some claw attacks. If you just go with spells, the party is in real trouble. Frankly, unlimited magic missiles is all they really need. Two hags will drop 21 average damage per round if they both cast MM; no attack roll, no save. That's brutal for a 3rd level party, even with healers.
4) Don't use counterspell. That's a dick move on 3rd level parties, given a hag coven has slots to keep it up all day long (against the spells that matter, like moonbeam). Also, be judicious with the offensive coven spells. The best attack is probably lightning bolt every round until the party is a pile of ash, but I only chose to use one for scare effect. The eyebite and phantasmal killer spells are just as scary, but less likely to lead to a TPK.
5) I didn't coup fallen PCs, obviously. I have done this before, but the fight didn't warrant it. I spread damage around on the PCs that could absorb it, and carefully managed the perceived threat level by countering the cleric's/druid's healing by using magic missile to keep them burning spellslots.
Could they have actually lost characters? Absolutely. If the druid had failed his second save against phantasmal killer, he could have been back-doored (reduced to negative max hp; I would have needed 22 damage from 4d10, which is right on the average). At least one fallen character was "rolling on two death boxes" before he was healed. More PCs would have gone down if the cleric/druid hadn't been extremely careful with healing. And the party tactics were very good - good choice of spells, keeping the hags from meleeing with the casters, occasional use of special tactics like Help or Shove (to knock prone), quick recognition of which damage types were working (e.g. silver, radiant, force, etc).
The beauty of this encounter is that it also scales for higher level parties. By changing the actions I took above, I could have easily manipulated the encounter to be a deadly fight for a 7th level party. All the hags attack together. They cast in the same round as appearing. They actively use counterspell and their best offensive coven spells. They focus fire on the healers first. That's part of the challenge (and fun) of being the DM. Manipulate the monsters' tactics to provide a credible threat (which occasionally kills PCs; let the dice roll how they may), but moderate it to the extent that you don't simply overwhelm them.
Lancelot
Adventurer
I really like this approach as well. It couldn't work in my campaign, because my players witnessed Morganthe actually snatching a kid. They knew what she was up to. The party fighter is basically a paladin, the cleric is a devout fellow, the rest are all good-aligned. There could be no deals; nor could there really be much hesitation. They can't come back at higher levels, because kids will die in the meantime. The pressure was on. Hence, the carefully curated fight described above.
But, in general, this is exactly the right approach for Ravenloft and I look forward to seeing it in other encounters. For example: my players quickly figured out what was going on at the church in Barovia, and decided not to intervene. They healed, blessed and fed the priest... and did not choose to interfere with his "son" in any way. Some of them legitimately didn't want to get into a fight with an unknown opponent, while others made the ethical argument that it was the "father's" choice. The greatest good they could do was to support the priest in an indirect fashion, and allow him to continue his course of action.
I'm expecting similar tough decisions in future. I'm particularly looking forward to encounters like the Abbey, and the Wolf Cave. I honestly have no idea how my players will handle those.
...
One other comment worth making: I'm using an alternate approach to leveling. The PCs gain no XP from killing monsters, at all. They only gain levels by achieving objectives. Specifically, they need 4 objectives to reach level 4, 5 objectives to reach level 5, and so forth.
What is an objective? Anything I choose, really. But here's what they've done so far: help bury the burgomeister (1 objective), visit Madam Eva (1 objective), resolve the situation at Old Bonegrinder (1 objective). As soon as they get Ireena to a safe place in Vallaki or Krezk, they'll get their 4th objective and level up.
Other objectives could include: clear out any of the various non-castle encounter areas, find one of the special items (Tome, Symbol, Sword, Ally), solve a major side-quest (e.g. the festival in Vallaki, the mad mage), etc. I think there are enough to get to 9th/10th level, even with the increasing number of objectives required to gain levels.
The players are really enjoying this approach, because they realize that combats are only worthwhile if they directly help achieve an objective. This promotes non-hostile gambits, stealth avoidance, deception, etc. Of course, none of that was going to work with the hags. The party had strong opinions on what was going on at the windmill...
evilbob
Explorer
SPOILERS too
Also, while the book suggests that a ~CR 13 encounter is appropriate for 4th level characters (?!?!?!) they are most likely going to be level 3 when they get here. It's almost impossible for them to level up before getting there, and it's the first thing on the way to anything else. Also, there are STRONG story suggestions for them to go there next. It's really even worse than Death House: at least the main challenge there can be outrun. Here, they WANT to finish this.
The second reason was that you left out the hags' heartstones. This is basically the same as the first reason, but the hags could have left the encounter at any time - certainly if they were wounded. And the leader could have left almost immediately to get her daughters. This means the party should have been fighting 3 hags after unloading on one for a round. And 3 lightning bolts / phantasmal killers / whatever in one round? Yeah. (I actually was thinking on not using the lightning bolt spell, since - at least, as written - it would burn down the windmill as well, and the hags wouldn't want to lose their hideout.)
Again, I think that write-up was awesome and your decisions were perfect! I only disagree that anything other than not playing monsters optimally made a difference.
Yeah, I agree in theory as well, but this is a bad example. I would be very surprised if any party was willing to stand by for children openly being murdered by monsters - which is part of why this encounter is such a likely TPK: the odds of combat are about 100%. And the odds of the party getting killed are nearly as high - unless you have a forgiving DM.It couldn't work in my campaign ... Of course, none of that was going to work with the hags. The party had strong opinions on what was going on at the windmill...
Also, while the book suggests that a ~CR 13 encounter is appropriate for 4th level characters (?!?!?!) they are most likely going to be level 3 when they get here. It's almost impossible for them to level up before getting there, and it's the first thing on the way to anything else. Also, there are STRONG story suggestions for them to go there next. It's really even worse than Death House: at least the main challenge there can be outrun. Here, they WANT to finish this.What an awesome write-up, thank you!
You did two things, in my opinion, that made this not be a TPK. First, none of the other reasons mattered as much as this one. "Not playing the monsters optimally" (even though they are supposed to be super intelligent - especially the leader) was the only reason the group lived, in my opinion. I'm not questioning your call, mind you - I think you played it perfectly! But not playing the monsters optimally was the only reason they lived.
The second reason was that you left out the hags' heartstones. This is basically the same as the first reason, but the hags could have left the encounter at any time - certainly if they were wounded. And the leader could have left almost immediately to get her daughters. This means the party should have been fighting 3 hags after unloading on one for a round. And 3 lightning bolts / phantasmal killers / whatever in one round? Yeah. (I actually was thinking on not using the lightning bolt spell, since - at least, as written - it would burn down the windmill as well, and the hags wouldn't want to lose their hideout.)
Again, I think that write-up was awesome and your decisions were perfect! I only disagree that anything other than not playing monsters optimally made a difference.
evilbob
Explorer
This was mentioned in the book and I plan to do it as well - I think it's perfect for Barovia for all the reasons you mentioned. I'm doing 5 "milestones" (or "objectives") per level. I actually made a huge list and could only come up with about 45-50, so that should take them from level 3 to 10 (assuming they won't actually do every one).
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