Could Mirage Arcana be used to cause someone to drown themselves?

[Arravis]

I'm prepping an aboleth encounter I'm looking over Mirage Arcana (a power an Aboleth can use at will), I noticed the following:
"The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements."

Could you use the spell to illusion an underwater cave to seem to be air filled? Of course visually yes, but how about the feel of the water around you, in your lungs, etc... wouldn't that fall under tactile? Would your movement feel normal, as in land, since that is also tactile? Anyway, just wanted to see what you guys thought about something like this...

-Arravis

 

[Arravis]

A friend and I have been discussing this issue and we're both under the impression that you could probably fool creatures into taking a breath with it, but they would know what is up by the coughing as their lungs fill with water. If this is the way it would work, would the creature immediately go into the "holding breath" rules of drowning, or does he go directly to unconscious since he essentially failed the "hold breath" part by taking a nice big gulp?

From the SRD:
"Drowning: Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.
When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns."

P.S.: Lastly... could you use this spell on dry land to make someone think that they are underwater and have them "drown" (pass out from holding their breath)?

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm prepping an aboleth encounter I'm looking over Mirage Arcana (a power an Aboleth can use at will), I noticed the following:
"The illusion includes audible, visual, tactile, and olfactory elements."

Could you use the spell to illusion an underwater cave to seem to be air filled? Of course visually yes, but how about the feel of the water around you, in your lungs, etc... wouldn't that fall under tactile? Would your movement feel normal, as in land, since that is also tactile? Anyway, just wanted to see what you guys thought about something like this...

-Arravis

Well, Mirage Arcana is a glamer spell, so the following applies:

Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.

So, it really won't do much of anything.

 

[Arravis]

So, it really won't do much of anything.

I'll disagree completely on that...

if done on an aquatic area, the real effect is the drowning, not breathing. So we simply default to its true nature, water, thus drowning. The illusion causes no damage at all, its the assumption of the creatures within that thus... as it says, it provides no protection from the elements. The same would be true if you cast it over a pit trap, lava, etc...

And as far as the illusion being cast on dry land to seem like water, again, the spell causes no damage. The assumption of the victim that he's in water and must hold his breath causes the effect.

 

[werk]

Will save to disbelieve. Way too many interactions for this to really work IMO.

 

[Arravis]

Will save to disbelieve. Way too many interactions for this to really work IMO.

Will save of course, but I do not believe you get more than one will save per illusion. Once you fail, you fail. There isn't a new saver per interaction, so it doesn't matter how many, unless, as stated in the Illusion section:
"If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus."

 

[MithrasRahl]

I'm failing to understand the confusion arrising from the OP.

His point is that you see a cave (if you insist on a will save, DM rolls it for the party without them knowing. The party enters the cave, and everything seems normal. They all take a breath, and all start choking on the water. They don't know why they're choking - could be invisible gas, could be a spell, who knows? so they then get to reroll their will save.

I don't know where I'd go from there though, probably a fortitude save to see if they pass out from trying to breath in water.

 

[Jhaelen]

if done on an aquatic area, the real effect is the drowning, not breathing.

Ah, sorry. I had it backwards, I thought the illusion was supposed to make a cave appear to be filled with water.

Note to self: Never reply to a thread without reading the OP carefully.

They get their inital save when they first interact with the water (probably by getting into contact with it). Even if the save fails, though, they'll notice something is wrong as soon as their movement is slowed (assuming the cave floor slowly descends into water). You cannot conceal the effects of the water with a glamer.

 

[Arravis]

Slow movement might be a give away or they might think some other effect is happening in the cave, but I suspect the biggest giveaway will be seeing stuff like their hair floating, etc. As I recall the illusion can't change creatures within the area. Again, depending on how observant the PCs are it might work... but they'll probably not fall for it, even with failed saves.

 

[moritheil]

They don't know why they're choking - could be invisible gas, could be a spell, who knows? so they then get to reroll their will save.

Uh, do you mean "reroll" or just roll? I see nothing in the rules that indicates they get to roll again - unless someone makes their save and communicates with the others (which could be hard to do if they're underwater at that point.)

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

I don't know where I'd go from there though, probably a fortitude save to see if they pass out from trying to breath in water.

The thing is, per the drowning rules, if you take a breath full of water, you're in big trouble.

Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

If they aren't holding their breath, they simply begin to drown and immediately fall unconscious (0 hp). The Con check exists just to see if they can hold their breath - but they have no reason to hold their breath under the terms of the illusion.