Council of Thieves or Kingmaker?

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Ok

If we're bringing in other adventure paths, I'm in agreement with you guys... I think you should run the Savage Tide adventure path. Or possibly Age of Worms, though the first two adventures in that are both quite hard. I'm currently running the Savage Tide AP for the second time and prefer it slightly to Age of Worms. Age of Worms is more 'iconic D&D', though.

Ken

 

[ruemere]

I wanna run one of the Pathfinder APs but I'm not sure which one to buy.
They both look interesting but I may have 1 or 2 new players in my group for it (one with zero experience in RPG and one who hasn't played anything since D&D 2nd ed).
Any suggestions on which one of those 2 APs would be better for new players?

Thanks

Kingmaker requires a party leader - someone, who knows when to pull off (and run) or who can get others to act. Additionally, at certain point, in addition to traditional roleplaying, you get to manage large organization - new players may find it overwhelming.

Council of Thieves is much more traditional Adventure Path, with the party almost always steered toward next hurdle.
There is one unconventional challenge, a play in the second part, but it may be quite easy for the new guys, as all you need to do during this part of adventure, is to play out a preset part (something one should be already doing during a roleplaying session).

In short, go with the Council of Thieves.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Gorrath]

Well, if the players need to act a play in Council of Thieves, this AP is really not for them. I'm missing my 2 best roleplay players in this group.

I know there is some other APs that might be more suitable for new players but I just bought the PFRPG Core Book and wanted to run an AP using those rules.

Is there some of the previous APs that I should stay far from?
Rise of the Runelords looks cool.
Didn't read much about Curse of the Crimson Throne.
Second Darkness looks weird.
Legacy of Fire is not the kind of setting that I like (not really a fan of desert and exotic lands).

About the older APs from the Dungeon magazine, only Savage Tide is 3.5 right?

Since 2-3 years I've been having a hard time putting a group together to play RPGs. Everyone is getting married or having children.
I haven't played for like 2 years so I don't really want to run a bunch of different modules like I used to do. So, I want a good one and Kingmaker seemed like a very interesting and innovating one.
When I saw the kingdom sheet in the Player's guide, it reminded me of games like Civilisation and Total War and that's the kind of details in a module I've been looking for since forever.

 

[SoldierBlue]

None of them are bad.

Rise of the Runelords - exceptional, as I've said elsewhere.

Curse of the Crimson Throne - don't own it/can't speak on it.

Second Darkness - good, but requires more DM work. Has a complex meta-plot.

First module is not exceptional, but the AP improves after the first module.

Legacy of Fire - could be better, and does have a strong desert ambiance, which is evidently not your thing.

Council of Thieves - very good, with a big but complex meta-plot. First one to use PFRPG, as you know.

I'm less of a fan of Savage Tide (own it) or Shackled City (played it) than I am of Age of Worms (DM'd part of it). Age of Worms feels classic, in that I think we'll be talking about it 10 years from now...

Have high hopes for Kingmaker.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I understand the desire to run an adventure path using the PFRPG rules. That's entirely understandable.

The modules Crypt of the Everflame, Masks of the Living God and City of Golden Death are all part of the same Price of Immortality trilogy. There is even a pretty cool flip-Mat of the dungeon in Crypt of the Everflame for you to use during your game sessions -- so it defnitely feels like you are playing one of Paizo's cadillac adventures arcs. And yes -- they are designed for the PFRPG rules.

I've played through Cyrpt and Masks both and we are now playing City of Golden Death. It's a decent story arc, from 1st to 6th level. Those three modules, taken together, provide more adventure material than a single book in a Paizo AP.

It provides a reasonable plot arc for your players without locking you into something that will last a year. You should get about ten 4-5 hour sessions from that mini AP -- perhaps more depending on your players.

I don't mean to come down on the adventure designs in these modules. They are pretty good - though not without problems. Mind you -- that'c coming from a guy who is preparing podcast show notes that are meant to entirely deconstruct these modules - so I'm literally trying to be critical of these adventures right now.

If you are forewarned, you can buff out those rough spots and make this part of your campaign very engaging.

Do give them a decent look-over and consider them as a strong contender. I do agree that Crypt of the Everflame is a particularly ideal first adventure module for new players. With just a little tweaking - this little gem can be polished to a brilliant shine.

 

[SoldierBlue]

Steel Wind,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I was hesitant to recommend Crypt of the Everflame. I just don't think it's very good. You simply go from room to not very interesting room with a monster in each one. I like the explanatory sidebars in the text, but I think PFRPG could do so much better.

But I got to say, I respect your judgement for all your other posts, so if you say it worked as an adventure, then Gorrath should carry on accordingly.

On a side note, played Carrion Hill last weekend. It's great, but maybe not for newbies...

 

[ruemere]

Well, if the players need to act a play in Council of Thieves, this AP is really not for them. I'm missing my 2 best roleplay players in this group.[...]

That's debatable. Allow me to spoil it for you (highlight to read text):

Spoiler

The second volume of Council of Thieves consists of:
1. Preparations for the play - meet the main NPCs, apply for a role (basically read a passage), have a short preview of first act (read a few lines, get scorned by audience, roleplay your fright on stage).

2. The play consists of several encounters taking place on stage - you're supposed to read a passage and then overcome a challenge illustrating content of an act.

3. Then you get invited to a supper and mix with the nobles. In between the courses, you're supposed to infiltrate manor defenses and steal valuable McGuffins.

The guy who wrote the Sixfold Trial adventure, Richard Pett, also wrote Carrion Hill.
You also have an option of skipping portions of the story by letting players roll the dice (i.e. ask them for a check and then read aloud results).

Allow me to repeat, Kingmaker only appears to be simple. For example:
- You need to manage your resources wisely, as random encounter in the wilderness may kill exhausted party.
- Once you get properly established, you suddenly get to be burdened with additional responsibilities (that of founding a kingdom - this is a new, separate system).
- Once you get into kingdom management, you also get to deal with more complex issues (murder mystery is the easy one, but then challenges with no easy solutions) in addition to difficult encounters (reconciling rights of settlers and natives, for example).

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Steel_Wind]

Steel Wind,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I was hesitant to recommend Crypt of the Everflame. You simply go from room to not very interesting room with a monster in each one. I like the explanatory sidebars in the text, but I think PFRPG could do so much better.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that observation either

More on that later.

 

[Azgulor]

Steel Wind,

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I was hesitant to recommend Crypt of the Everflame. I just don't think it's very good. You simply go from room to not very interesting room with a monster in each one. I like the explanatory sidebars in the text, but I think PFRPG could do so much better.

But I got to say, I respect your judgement for all your other posts, so if you say it worked as an adventure, then Gorrath should carry on accordingly.

On a side note, played Carrion Hill last weekend. It's great, but maybe not for newbies...

While this is accurate to a large extent, I still consider it an excellent newbie/1st-level adventure. Unlike most intro adventures, it provides good story/character-driven reasons as to why the adventurers are there and provides "soft" hooks to the next adventure. The set-up takes a traditional dungeon-crawl for plunder and turns it into a combination mystery/tomb-robbing session.

Like any good intro adventure, it provides opportunities to teach the game mechanics - combat, traps, spells, etc. However, Crypt of the Everflame also succeeds where many others fail - it's got healthy does of role-play opportunities that, aside from teaching the role-play facet, provide opportunities for using social skills.

Also, the starting village/town is fleshed out much like the classic Keep on the Borderlands, with easily ID'd "patron NPCs" if you wish to utilize them for the players.

The hand-off to Masks of the Living God are such that you can seed some smaller adventures in between the 1st & 2nd installment if you like as well, allowing the GM to tailor the pace of play to his/her players.

As intro modules go, I think CotE hits all the right marks. There are other modules that are more ambitious and may be stronger in one particular area (locales, monsters, plot, etc.) but there are far, far more intro modules that pale in comparison to Crypt.