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Counterspell - Do I know my foes' spell before I counter?
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<blockquote data-quote="Harzel" data-source="post: 7247716" data-attributes="member: 6857506"><p>No problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You keep saying things like this, but I still don't understand why players would be less trusting about the DM knowing what spell a PC is casting than about the many other things that the DM knows that an opponent could use against the PCs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I view having to compartmentalize knowledge as a burden. The DM has to be adept at it because there is so much that she knows that NPCs should not know, and she has to run a myriad of NPCs each with a different knowledge base. If knowledge starts leaking across those boundaries, it seems to me the game pretty much goes sideways.</p><p></p><p>Players on the other hand generally are running only one character, and generally know (comparatively) little more than their character does. If a little information does leak through, the impact is probably pretty limited, so they can be pretty relaxed about it. I think that is a benefit. In the case of an NPC casting a spell that the PC should not know about (regardless of how that is determined), giving that information to the player anyway a) has no benefit and b) has the downside of increasing player vs. character knowledge gap, thereby increasing the amount of attention the player has to pay to compartmentalizing his knowledge. Why do something that has only a downside?</p><p></p><p>Now, based on the above, you could beat me over the head with my own argument and say that not knowing the spell that a PC is going to cast when the NPC(s) should not would reduce the burden on the DM. And I would agree with that much. However, it appears to me that there is a cost/benefit problem with doing so. First, the <em>relative </em>amount that this reduces the DM's need to attend to knowledge compartmentalization is very small - a nit really. Second, on the cost side, you need to find a smooth way to implement it. For instance, if there is mid-combat crosstalk between players about tactics, what do you do? Have the DM leave the room? Have her put on headphones blaring loud music? It seem like it will entail a lot of awkwardness.</p><p></p><p>If it happens that the player can conveniently not identify the spell he is casting, and the DM determines that the NPC should not know it, then sure, fine, keep it a secret until the DM has decided whether the NPC will counterspell or not. But it still kind of feels like a weird little one-off that treats a molehill like a mountain.</p><p></p><p>As a more general note, arguments based on positing symmetry between the DM and the players are rarely going to work; the relationship is generally <em>highly</em> asymmetric.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harzel, post: 7247716, member: 6857506"] No problem. You keep saying things like this, but I still don't understand why players would be less trusting about the DM knowing what spell a PC is casting than about the many other things that the DM knows that an opponent could use against the PCs. I view having to compartmentalize knowledge as a burden. The DM has to be adept at it because there is so much that she knows that NPCs should not know, and she has to run a myriad of NPCs each with a different knowledge base. If knowledge starts leaking across those boundaries, it seems to me the game pretty much goes sideways. Players on the other hand generally are running only one character, and generally know (comparatively) little more than their character does. If a little information does leak through, the impact is probably pretty limited, so they can be pretty relaxed about it. I think that is a benefit. In the case of an NPC casting a spell that the PC should not know about (regardless of how that is determined), giving that information to the player anyway a) has no benefit and b) has the downside of increasing player vs. character knowledge gap, thereby increasing the amount of attention the player has to pay to compartmentalizing his knowledge. Why do something that has only a downside? Now, based on the above, you could beat me over the head with my own argument and say that not knowing the spell that a PC is going to cast when the NPC(s) should not would reduce the burden on the DM. And I would agree with that much. However, it appears to me that there is a cost/benefit problem with doing so. First, the [I]relative [/I]amount that this reduces the DM's need to attend to knowledge compartmentalization is very small - a nit really. Second, on the cost side, you need to find a smooth way to implement it. For instance, if there is mid-combat crosstalk between players about tactics, what do you do? Have the DM leave the room? Have her put on headphones blaring loud music? It seem like it will entail a lot of awkwardness. If it happens that the player can conveniently not identify the spell he is casting, and the DM determines that the NPC should not know it, then sure, fine, keep it a secret until the DM has decided whether the NPC will counterspell or not. But it still kind of feels like a weird little one-off that treats a molehill like a mountain. As a more general note, arguments based on positing symmetry between the DM and the players are rarely going to work; the relationship is generally [I]highly[/I] asymmetric. [/QUOTE]
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