Counterspelling doubts.

[iwatt]

Can you counterspell:

1) An invisible foe casting a spell? Does it depend on the components (V,S,M)

2) A caster using still spell, silent spell, and eschew materials?

Thanx

 

[dedicated]

yes and yes, but you need ways to know they are casting a spell

 

[Rackhir]

"COUNTERSPELLS It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

How Counterspells Work: To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

Specific Exceptions: Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.

Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell (see the spell description)."

So to elaborate on the answers in the post above. Nothing about the situations you mentions directly prohibits counterspelling, but they would likely prevent the character attempting to counterspell from being able to either know a spell was being cast or prevent them from identifying the spell being cast. Both necessary conditions to be able to successfully counterspell.


If you can't see the caster (invisibility) and the spell has no verbal components, then not only couldn't you identify the target to counterspell, but likely couldn't identify the spell being cast or even know that a spell was being cast in time to be able to counterspell it. In otherwords, you can't counterspell a fireball once it has gone off on top of you.


On the other hand, if the spell was verbal components only and the dispelling character was able to make a spot check in order to localize the invisible caster by sound, then counterspelling would at least be possible.


In your second example, again some method of determining that a spell was being cast would most likely be necessary. Detect Magic for example might suffice.


However in both situations a penalty to the spellcraft roll needed to identify the spell being cast seems reasonable and could conceivably be high enough to make succeeding in the spellcraft roll impossible.

 

[dcollins]

Actually, the primary problem I see is the need to "select an opponent as the target of the counterspell". Unfortunately by the rules of spellcasting you're not allowed to target something you can't see.

Even if you yank out all the components, official rulings (FAQ) hold that everything else still works the same, so you can still interrupt it, Spellcraft it, counterspell it, etc.

 

[iwatt]

However in both situations a penalty to the spellcraft roll needed to identify the spell being cast seems reasonable and could conceivably be high enough to make succeeding in the spellcraft roll impossible.

Ah, i see what you mean. Add +5 to the DC of the spellcraft check for every component removed from the spell, In my second example that would make it +15 to the DC (pretty tough), If I went for +10 to the DC: +30 in the example (almost impossible).

On the other hand, if the spell was verbal components only and the dispelling character was able to make a spot check in order to localize the invisible caster by sound, then counterspelling would at least be possible.

Why the spot check? I don't see anyline in the spellcraft check saying you need to know were the caster is as long as you can detect the spell been cast (from the vocal components for instance).

 

[Len]

I don't see anyline in the spellcraft check saying you need to know were the caster is as long as you can detect the spell been cast (from the vocal components for instance).

Under "Counterspells":

To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. ... To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell.

Under "Aiming a Spell":

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect.

 

[iwatt]

Under "Counterspells":

Under "Aiming a Spell":

But were does the counterspell happen? in the space were the spell is goin to occur, or were the caster is located?

For example, an imp invis sorc casts fireball. The countering wizard heard the spell (enough to identify it via the spellcraft check). He sees the pellet flying towards the point in space. Isn't this enough to give him a chance to counter it?

 

[Rackhir]

But were does the counterspell happen? in the space were the spell is goin to occur, or were the caster is located?

For example, an imp invis sorc casts fireball. The countering wizard heard the spell (enough to identify it via the spellcraft check). He sees the pellet flying towards the point in space. Isn't this enough to give him a chance to counter it?

"COUNTERSPELLS It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane."

One it has been cast. At least according to how this is phrased, it's too late. You are attempting to disrupt the CASTING of the spell. Not the actual spell. Spell casting takes time. in most circumstances spell effects take effect immediately upon the completion of the spell casting.

 

[iwatt]

"COUNTERSPELLS It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane."

One it has been cast. At least according to how this is phrased, it's too late. You are attempting to disrupt the CASTING of the spell. Not the actual spell. Spell casting takes time. in most circumstances spell effects take effect immediately upon the completion of the spell casting.

Right, it happens before. Thanx.

 

[Shariell]

And what about a quickened spell? is the spell still counter-spellable?