Coup de grace

[MACLARREN]

I actually have the pleasure of playing in Destans current campaign as well as all of his campaigns since the mid 80's. I guess you really couldn't ask for a better situation and DM that tests your knowledge and it is ALWAYS a blast. Anyhow, we have been playing on line utilizing Fantasy Grounds and I would highly recommend the program to anyone and use Teamspeak to talk and it's as close to sitting at the table with one another as you can be. So, after a long winded introduction, on to the subject at hand. In our session 2 nights ago we ran into a situation and let me say that I agree with the decision with the rules are written but I just have a problem with the rules and think they should be corrected or maybe we are not interpreting it right but I don't believe that to be the case. Anyhow, I have an ass kicking front line fighter that was up against several undead that will paralyze you on a missed save. Imagine that! Paralyzation from an undead! Anyhow, lets just say that the dice WERE NOT going my way at all that night. I begin by missing a Fort save DC 14 with a +6 Fort save bonus and become paralyzed. Well, one of my allys saw this happen and proceeded to step forward and protect my body by occupying my square thinking it would elimiante any chance for a coup de grace. Well, we were all a little surprised by what we found in the book. So, on the undeads next turn he attempts to do a coup de grace which provoked an AO from my comrade and my comrade proceeded to miss. Well anyhow, I was wearing one of Destans custom magic items being a helm that on a critical, which a coup de grace is an automatic, I had a one time 25% chance of the critical not going through. So, I'm asked if I want to roll my percentile high or low, I respond low and waht do I roll, a 98. My luck this night. haha So, now the critical is a hit and he deals 13 points of damage. So, we have a thing called Action points and I burn one and get to add a modifiaction overall of +8 to my fort roll for a save of DC 13. Well, what happens, I now proceed to roll a goddamn 1. Dead without a scratch on him. I'm fine with that and that is the way it is. My question is, how the hell is something able to attempt a coup de grace on an individual while one of his allys are standing directly over their body fighting and defending him? It just doesn't make sense like a lot of the rules that need fixing in my opinion. I guess I'm just trying to see some other thoughts on the situation and I am fine with what we rolled and a lot has come about because of the consequences but please post thoughts, interpretations, etc. I think this is a bad rule personally and want others opinions. Not crying I died because I had PLENTY of opportunity to get out of the situation but it just wasn't in the dice! Let me know and thanks for taking the time to read this long winded inquiry.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, here's your post edited into more than one text block. Then, I'll work on answering your questions ...

I actually have the pleasure of playing in Destans current campaign as well as all of his campaigns since the mid 80's. I guess you really couldn't ask for a better situation and DM that tests your knowledge and it is ALWAYS a blast.

Anyhow, we have been playing on line utilizing Fantasy Grounds and I would highly recommend the program to anyone and use Teamspeak to talk and it's as close to sitting at the table with one another as you can be.

So, after a long winded introduction, on to the subject at hand.

In our session 2 nights ago we ran into a situation. Let me say that I agree with the decision, with the rules as written, but I just have a problem with the rules and think they should be corrected; or, maybe we are not interpreting it right, but I don't believe that to be the case.

Anyhow, I have an ass kicking front line fighter that was up against several undead that will paralyze you on a missed save. Imagine that! Paralyzation from an undead! Anyhow, lets just say that the dice WERE NOT going my way at all that night. I begin by missing a Fort save DC 14 with a +6 Fort save bonus and become paralyzed.

Well, one of my allies saw this happen and proceeded to step forward and protect my body by occupying my square thinking it would elimiante any chance for a coup de grace. Well, we were all a little surprised by what we found in the book. So, on the undeads next turn he attempts to do a coup de grace which provoked an AO from my comrade and my comrade proceeded to miss.

Well anyhow, I was wearing one of Destans custom magic items: a helm that on a critical, which a coup de grace is an automatic, provides a one-time, 25% chance of the critical not going through. So, I'm asked if I want to roll my percentile high or low, I respond low and waht do I roll, a 98. My luck this night. haha

So, now the critical is a hit and he deals 13 points of damage. So, we have a thing called Action points and I burn one and get to add a modifiaction overall of +8 to my fort roll for a save of DC 13. Well, what happens, I now proceed to roll a goddamn 1. Dead without a scratch on him. I'm fine with that and that is the way it is.

My question is, how the hell is something able to attempt a coup de grace on an individual while one of his allys are standing directly over their body fighting and defending him? It just doesn't make sense like a lot of the rules that need fixing in my opinion. I guess I'm just trying to see some other thoughts on the situation and I am fine with what we rolled and a lot has come about because of the consequences but please post thoughts, interpretations, etc.

I think this is a bad rule personally and want others opinions.

Not crying I died because I had PLENTY of opportunity to get out of the situation but it just wasn't in the dice! Let me know and thanks for taking the time to read this long winded inquiry.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's not really the rules that need fixing, it's the DM. It may not be a bad tactical decision on the DM's part to have the monster ignore the moving opponent, especially to the tune of an AoO, but there's an argument that it is. If so, then it's bad form to coup de grace a PC just for the sake of a PC death. Another than that, I personally go out of my way to avoid such situations because it's just plain not fun. Even intelligent undead like ghouls and ghasts (likely what you fought) should have attacked the moving opponent.

But, like you noted, it's per the rules, so you have to place the blame on the DM for using them in a non-fun way.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, on to the question.

When the undead paralyzed you, you were paralyzed, not prone. So you were still standing there, in whatever position you were in when the undead first hit you.

Therefore, your buddy probably wasn't actually standing over your body, protecting you. He was, at best, standing next to you. Whether or not this is actually possible to do is debatable.

So, on to your real point. Yes, the rules say this can be done. You were helpless, the undead threatened you, and it took a full-round action and provoked an AoO in order to rip your throat out.

I therefore contest your statement that your character died "without a scratch on him." After all, you got hit at least twice (once to paralyze, once to CDG).

BTB, your Fort save DC to survive the undead's CDG attempt would have been 23 (= 10 + damage dealt), not 13.

 

[werk]

The fact that your buddy was defending you is why there is a AoO. When you are paralyzed you are HELPLESS.

Your buddy should have threw a blanket over you, that would have at least bought you another round for the rest of the party to freakin' do something!

I don't mind the way CdG works, but our DM doesn't usually have the bad guy attacking downed foes while another one is chopping on him, he's a softy like that.

 

[MACLARREN]

Yea, you are right with what you said about not having a scratch on me, I was hit once for minimal damage and that's when the paralysis occured. You are also right in the fact that I would be standing not prone which would not allow a comrade to actively protect me. However, I do believe that the DM was playing the role of the Creature because it was an intelligent home made creature and what it would have done. I know he didn't want to do it, but it's just him playing the roles of the creature and he felt aweful. But, it's just what it would have done and that's how we all want it to be and I have no problem with what he did. Sorry, I was wrong with some of my numbers, going off of rough numbers here at work trying to remember and you are right with the DC of the fort save on the Coup de Grace. My memeory just sucks but I was just getting to the point of the defense of a comrade and seeing if we misinterpreted the rules and this solidified the fact that we didn't and it's a done thing not just for a PC death by the DM, but because it's what the situation would have dictated in my opinion. So thanks to all who have replied quickly.

 

[Infiniti2000]

BTB, your Fort save DC to survive the undead's CDG attempt would have been 23 (= 10 + damage dealt), not 13.

I think he was subtracting the value of the action point from the DC or something like that. It doesn't work out either way, though, so I'm not sure what the error is. His base save is +6. Does the action point add +8 (for a total of +14) or does it raise it up to +8 or does it raise it up to +10, which would make the DC 13 make a little more sense (though wrong in any case)?

 

[William_2]

Because the D&D combat system allows characters to take massive damage in a round but still be, in all measurable ways other than HP, completely unharmed, maneuvers like this one seem like perfectly acceptable risks. When players do them, I think it is OK to let the line between player and character be fudged. As a DM, on the other hand, I play characters, creatures, whatever, as though they don’t know they are in a D&D game. This is why I would never have a monster use that move – it just seems terribly dangerous to mess around trying to find a critical spot on a downed opponent while other ones, who might kill you with a single blow, are milling about, indeed, trying to stop you.
So, that is why I would not have this happen. The rules allow it, but it is meta-gamey behavior on the part of the creature, in my view. To me, it almost has to be acting on knowledge of the PCs level to take that particular risk.

 

[thebitdnd]

I think there are definitely times when CDG is perfectly fine for a DM to use, even when it may seem it doesn't make sense with attackers nearby to take AoOs. Perhaps these undead were under orders from a BBEG to reduce the PC group's number, i.e. take the opportunity to kill a PC if it gets that chance.

I agree that instances like this should be rarely invoked. PCs are designed to live while monsters are generally designed to die to PCs. Given that it's expected that monsters will fight one battle and die most times while PCs can expect countless encounters over their careers, CDG and similar save-or-die situations are slanted against the PCs.

The whole encounter ended up with the PC coming back as an undead after the PC was 'raised' with some unconventional magics. He's now back in the party, though he's undead. He's the same old tank he was, just now he's undead. The rest of the PCs, my PC included, are still keeping their distance. We're not entirely sold on the new and improved undead tank.

If we have to kill him at some point, I'm just sorry my barbarian won't be able to crit him.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The situation has gone from bad to worse. Nothing personal against the DM, but in my opinion he followed a poor choice with a major mistake. He's either an extremely competent, masterful DM, or he's totally green. I can't decide which without a lot more information, but my guess is on the latter given the first mistake.