CR Adjustment

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Hi folks. Have a question for the more system-minded amongst you.

In my campaign, I want to dragons to be less like D&D-style dragons - spellcasting, spell-like ability laden supra intelligent magical creatures. I'd prefer they be more like dragons from the film Dragonslayer or Reign of Fire, large animalistic predators.

Basically, looking at the red dragon entry in MM for a moment, I'd leave them:
Immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, the increasing DR, and SR.

I'd get rid of:
the SLAs, any ability to cast spells. In addition, I'll be reducing their Int/Wis/Cha scores to be more like very intelligent predators but not so much they can talk or converse.

My questions are:
What should be the CR adjustment to the book's CR?
What should their mental stats drop to to make them nontalking predators?

 

[darthkilmor]

Hi folks. Have a question for the more system-minded amongst you.

In my campaign, I want to dragons to be less like D&D-style dragons - spellcasting, spell-like ability laden supra intelligent magical creatures. I'd prefer they be more like dragons from the film Dragonslayer or Reign of Fire, large animalistic predators.

Basically, looking at the red dragon entry in MM for a moment, I'd leave them:
Immunity to fire, vulnerability to cold, the increasing DR, and SR.

I'd get rid of:
the SLAs, any ability to cast spells. In addition, I'll be reducing their Int/Wis/Cha scores to be more like very intelligent predators but not so much they can talk or converse.

My questions are:
What should be the CR adjustment to the book's CR?
What should their mental stats drop to to make them nontalking predators?

Frankly you could probably effectively run a dragon without ever using any SLA's so I wouldnt tweak the CR myself.

Anything with a 3 or greater Int can talk. You could leave the mental stats alone. Just because they Can talk doesn't mean they do.

MMV has some info about reworking dragons to be less spell-heavy, if you have access to it.

 

[blargney the second]

Wasn't there a Feral Dragon template in Draconomicon? Failing that, just use the Feral template from Savage Species (and check to make sure it isn't wonky in 3.5).

 

[skelso]

I read somewhere that Dragon CRs are intentionally lower than appropriate so that fighting dragons will always be a "memorable" encounter. Personally, like darthkilmor, I'd leave the CR alone. I'd lower the treasure though. The treasure is supposed to be high, partially for flavor and partially to compensate for the inadequate xp reward.

 

[moritheil]

Depending on how powergamey your players are, this could render the dragon a cakewalk. I would consider figuring out what buffs the dragon could reasonably put up using the spell slots you are eliminating, and then write those into the dragon's permanent stat block in exchange for eliminating casting. Even then, the lack of crucial spells like wind wall (to foil archers) or wraithstrike (to be able to hit frontliners with 50+ AC) will be very noticeable against tactically competent player groups.