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CR for a hobbled party?

Bloodsparrow

First Post
Let's say for a moment that there's a party of several high level characters...

And, normally, the (hypothetical) Party's CR is 9. (an average of the CRs of all party members.) But bad bad things happen to our proverbial heroes and they loose most, if not all, of their equipment...

What happens to the CR (of the party members)?

Does it go down? I would think so. But how does one adjust for things like that?
 
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dvvega

Explorer
Well I believe the CR is based on many factors. Equipment being one of them. A standard character of 9th level has a certain amount of gold to spend on magical equipment and normal equipment.

So yes their CR should be lower. Without his spellbook, the Wizard can't cast spells, without his Holy Symbol the Cleric is in a similar bucket. The Fighter and Rogue are pretty much okay as is a Sorcerer. Their skills are based on innate ability.

So it depends on the party mix.
 

Bloodsparrow

First Post
Hmmm, I may have worded my query poorly... I'll have to amend my previous post...

The party CR is, as far as I know, is the average of individual CR. So I know how to get the party CR...

But I guess my real questions is how to figure the individual CRs of the party members.

Like when the party hasn't been able to find food, or if they're not well rested. If they've been cursed, or are unable (for whatever reason) to cast most (if not all) of their spells.
 

Thanee

First Post
If you are looking for a way to determine, what is an appropriate challenge for the party, CR is not what you need.

CR is just a rough guidance (and a source to calculate rewards), nothing else.

It's much better to decide with the current abilities of the party in mind and what opponents could do to them.

Under the right circumstances a single opponent of way lower CR might cause a total party kill, while even high CR opponents could still be easy to defeat.

There are just too many variables involved.

Usually the CR of a creature doesn't change from temporary modifiers (like being unrested, or unarmed).

However, equipment does have a great influence in the power of a character and therefore it's certainly sensible to lower the CR by some factor, which heavily depends on the class and equipment and other such stuff. There are no fixed values for this, tho.

Bye
Thanee
 

Halivar

First Post
If ti's high level, the casters are probably less affected by the loss of equipment. I'd go ahead and peg their CR's the same as before. But the fighters... yeesh... can you even give them a CR? I suppose they can grapple or something.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
If you think that a wizard with his spellbook and component pouch is able to take the same challenges as a wizard with a +3 cloak of resistance, +4 headband of Intellect, Clvl 7 wand of magic missiles, three pearls of power and a selection of utility scrolls stashed in his Handy Haversack you're greatly mistaken.

The same is true for a cleric. The cleric in scavenged studded leather with a quarterstaff and an improvised holy symbol is not able to take the same challenges as a cleric with +2 fullplate, a +2 cloak of resistance, +1 Holy longsword, +1 buckler, +2 periapt of wisdom, pearl of power and a wand of cure light wounds.

And an 8th level fighter in his underwear with a normal longsword is still quite capable of great-cleaving (or whirlwinding) his way through hordes of low level foes.

All characters suffer from not having equipment and none are completely shut down. (Although some are hurt more badly than others--the monk is probably the least equipment dependent character class and the fighter the most equipment dependent with others falling somewhere in between).

So, I'd recommend doing two things. First, tone down your base assumptions about what PCs can handle by one to three CRs. And second, evaluate them individually for challenge. Abilities like rend which depend upon hitting multiple times (much more likely when the PCs are poorly equipped), mass incapacitating spell like abilities (frex, the Mummy's despair ability; PCs are much less likely to save without their resistance items), and DR (DR /adamantine is much more difficult to overcome without adamantine weapons (or magic weapons whose plusses can be converted into damage to overcome the DR through power attack)).


Halivar said:
If ti's high level, the casters are probably less affected by the loss of equipment. I'd go ahead and peg their CR's the same as before. But the fighters... yeesh... can you even give them a CR? I suppose they can grapple or something.
 

Scion

First Post
Assuming that they can readily get back base equipment (find a sword, some armor, whatever, all nonmagical) and not having a mage lose his spellbook (that just about equals a null character, glorified commoner comes to mind) then I think dropping their effective cr by 2 is about right, possibly 3 depending on just how little spare equipment they can find.

A 9th level fighter with no weapon and no armor and no feat to attack barehanded is pretty much suicide. Time for him to give up to the nearest enemy force ;)
 

FrankTrollman

First Post
If you think that a wizard with his spellbook and component pouch is able to take the same challenges as a wizard with a +3 cloak of resistance, +4 headband of Intellect, Clvl 7 wand of magic missiles, three pearls of power and a selection of utility scrolls stashed in his Handy Haversack you're greatly mistaken.

Yes. That's exactly what I think. The Wizard casts Fox's Cunning, and has the same save DC on all of his spells. His offense hasn't diminished in any way.

He's more susceptible to harm.

He'll run out of spells sooner.

But he dishes out beatings in the final battle exactly the same as the Wizard with all of his swag. A high level spellcaster who loses equipment loses only staying power - his force-at-point is undiminished.

So a Wizard's appropriate individual encounter CR essentially does not change for losing every item he owns - only his plausible encounters per day.

And if he's in to Teleporting around - that doesn't even really matter.

-Frank
 

Thanee

First Post
FrankTrollman said:
So a Wizard's appropriate individual encounter CR essentially does not change for losing every item he owns - only his plausible encounters per day.

Yep!

And with the right spells even the defense doesn't diminish, he just uses up more spells!

Bye
Thanee
 

nimisgod

LEW Judge
Scion said:
Assuming that they can readily get back base equipment (find a sword, some armor, whatever, all nonmagical) and not having a mage lose his spellbook (that just about equals a null character, glorified commoner comes to mind)

You mean a commoner with a good will save? :)
 

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