CR of non-monster NPCs and enemies

[thol]

What would the CR for say a Human Wizard of level 8? The DM's Guide implies that it would be CR 8.

If that's so, a party of four 8th level characters should be sufficiently challenged. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially if one of them is an 8th level wizard himself. And what if all four are 8th level wizards?

Can someone enlighten me?

 

[Infiniti2000]

What would the CR for say a Human Wizard of level 8? The DM's Guide implies that it would be CR 8.

That's correct.

If that's so, a party of four 8th level characters should be sufficiently challenged. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially if one of them is an 8th level wizard himself.

Yes. Keep in mind that 'challenged' does not mean that there is an equal chance for either side to win. Challenges are meant to consume 20-25% of a party's resources. The party randomly encountering such a wizard should expect as much. Situational modifiers could apply, though. A fully prepped 8th level wizard ready with an ambush could conceivably do a lot of damage to an 8th level party.

And what if all four are 8th level wizards?

The EL would be 12, which means it would be extremely dangerous for the party. Making them all wizards could cause the encounter to be more dangerous, or even less, depending on the party's makeup. But, the fact that they are all wizards and not rogues (for example) does not change the CR or EL.

 

[Darkness]

The EL would be 12, which means it would be extremely dangerous for the party.

I think "if all four are 8th-level wizards" referred to the PCs.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think "if all four are 8th-level wizards" referred to the PCs.

Heh. You're probably right. I don't think that changes my response, though. 4 against 1 is begging for an ass-kicking, but there are still a lot of variables.

 

[PrinceZane]

Yeah, I really dislike the 1npc vs the party setup. I'd rather have like.. a lvl 8 wizard and 2-3 lvl 4-5 minions vs the party. Makes things a bit more challenging, and they actually have to use some sort of combat tactics instead of just pummel the poor guy and keep him down the whole fight.

 

[thol]

The EL would be 12, which means it would be extremely dangerous for the party. Making them all wizards could cause the encounter to be more dangerous, or even less, depending on the party's makeup. But, the fact that they are all wizards and not rogues (for example) does not change the CR or EL.

I actually meant what if the four party members were 8th level wizards going against an 8th level wizard. Anyway, I see your point.

I guess I am just trying to figure out what level to throw at a party of 6 with EL 6 for a climactic encounter. It seems like I should throw a CR 5, 6, or 7 Wizard at them to consume 20% of their resources if they were four. So I increase that +1 for them being a party of 6. So now I'm looking at a level 6, 7, or 8 Wizard. Or, I could do a mixed pair of CR 6 + 4. To make it really challenging, it is suggested in the DMG that I up the CR 1-4. So now we are talking either a level 9 or 10 Wizard solo, or a level 8 or so Wizard with a CR 4 or 5 cohort (or combo of CR 4 or 5 equivalent cohorts.)

Could a party of 6 (three level 4, a level 5 and two level 6) take on a level 8 Wizard with a few CR 2 or 3 cohorts?

Confusing.

 

[jtone]

My gaming group has three PCs, so I have to figure out non-standard CRs all the time. Here's the formula I use to find the CRs of both sides:

p = CR {if CR < =2} or 2^(CR/2) {if CR > 2}
EL = SIGMA(p) {if SIGMA(p) < =2} or 2 * ln (SIGMA(p))/ln(2) {if SIGMA(p) > 2}

It looks complicated, but I just plugged it into an Excel spreadsheet and away I go. (SIGMA is just sum.)

Rating Encounters:
Appropriate (Party EL - 4) approximately 15 of these = 1 level
Difficult (Party EL - 2) approximately 8 of these = 1 level
Deadly (Party EL) approximately 4 of these = 1 level

Here's my full entry on it. http://jjtone.com/wp/archives/2004/08/16/encounter-level-challenge-rating-party-strength/

As always, CRs are just an approximation. Using careful planning, I've nearly killed a party with appropriate encounters and with sloppy planning I've had them waltz through deadly encounters.

If you want an Excel spreadsheet, just let me know.