Craft Skill - mechanically broken

[tenelo]

I believe the mechanics behind the Craft (x) skill are fundamentally flawed. (Note - this is a 'mechanically incorrect' type of broken, rather than an 'overpowered' broken.) As it stands, the time it takes to create an item is a direct function of the end price as listed in the PHB/DMG, and the DC of the Craft check. (Check result for Craft roll*DC), repeat each week until combined totals = or exceed price of item in sp.

However, this means that the same craftsman with the same Craft bonus 'taking ten' on all his craft rolls to determine how long it takes to make an item will take longer to make a simple item with DC 5 worth 1000gp than to make a difficult item DC 20 also worth 1000gp.

This is clearly silly.

An easier DC should mean an easier item to make, thus taking less time. This is not very noticeable on low priced items, but the mechanics are exactly the same, and the difference is clear as the price of the item begins to increase.

Has this come up in anyone's games? Does anyone care about the problem, or is it mostly irrelevant? What should be done about the problem? (This thread may need to be moved to House Rules as/if people provide solutions, but at the moment, it is a genuine rules query) What implications does this have for masterwork items?

I'd really like to hear from someone involved in rules design (preferably WotC, but not essential) as to what is going on. I need a good understanding of the craft rules for a Prestige Class I am trying to construct, and this has me really stuck.

As a side note, does anyone know of a clear explanation for creating masterwork items that aren't weapons or armour? Things like masterworked jewellery, stuff that is clearly more expensive due to the skill of the craftsman, but whose base raw materials cost would be the same even if they weren't masterworked?

 

[Macbrea]

Your correct in your analysis on how it works.


Assuming both a hammer (12gp) and a battle axe (10gps) are about the same 12 DC to make.

A smith with +10 crafting(weapons) taking 10:

Battle Axe: 20 x 12 = 24 gp a week or 2 axes a week with starting the third one.

Hammers: 20 x 12 = 24 gps a week or exactly two warhammers a week.

Now a dagger DC 8 to create would mean.

Dagger: 20 x 8 or 16 gps a week or 8 daggers.


As you can see on the lower ends it works out perfectly fine. Because cheaper items normally have a smaller DC to make them. Which means you get more for your buck when making it.


But if you determine that an item is DC 20 to make and another item is only DC 5 and they have the same value your saying that the easier item to make just takes longer to make.

By the way, there is a couple of neat ideas for a smith class in the Rokugan book. As there is a master smith prestige class in there that gains the abilities to make Legendary steels.

 

[Jeremy]

Amount of work accomplished = Difficulty Class x Craft Check.

So if I make a 20 on my check on a DC 20 item I get 400 silver pieces worth of work done.

With the same 20 on a simple DC 8 item I only get 160 silver pieces of work done.

This becomes a serious problem when you get into making difficult things.

If you are making mithral full plate armor, you've got 10,500 gp worth of work to do. That's 105,000 sp of work. A 10th level expert with a total craft skill of +15 would if taking 10 have a craft check of 25 and a DC of 20. That's 500 sp of work done per week.

That means for this one suit of armor it's going to take 210 weeks or over 4 years to complete.

It is a flawed mechanic.

 

[Jack Haggerty]

If you are making mithral full plate armor, you've got 10,500 gp worth of work to do. That's 105,000 sp of work. A 10th level expert with a total craft skill of +15 would if taking 10 have a craft check of 25 and a DC of 20. That's 500 sp of work done per week.

That means for this one suit of armor it's going to take 210 weeks or over 4 years to complete.

Which is precisely why you don't see many suits of mithral full plate armor lying around.

 

[tenelo]

So, there's agreement it's flawed.

Does this cause problems in general? Is there an official calrification?

What should be done about this?

How should the Craft rules be fixed?

 

[Macbrea]

If you are making mithral full plate armor, you've got 10,500 gp worth of work to do. That's 105,000 sp of work. A 10th level expert with a total craft skill of +15 would if taking 10 have a craft check of 25 and a DC of 20. That's 500 sp of work done per week.

That means for this one suit of armor it's going to take 210 weeks or over 4 years to complete.

It is a flawed mechanic.

Ah, but your views on a smithy are incorrect.


Lets, take an elven smithy and make a set of Mithril full plate armor. (10, 500 gps value, DC 20 to make)


The Elven smith Lvl 10 - +15 with his skill.

Using a masterwork anvil and forge, He has one Journeyman make greaves, Another pound metal plates into knee caps, Another link links of chainmail together to form sets the pattern pieces of chainmail, Another whos job is to cut the links to exactly the right size, another to sew a gambison that will be used within the armor, another to hold pieces while the master smith pieces the major pieces together.


So, what does this say, Those individuals are each applying circumsance modifiers from difference sources to this work.

+15 Smith
+2 Anvil MW
+2 Forge MW
+2 Journeyman 1
+2 Journeyman 2
+2 Journeyman 3
+2 Journeyman 4
+2 Journeyman 5
+2 Journeyman 6
+10 Taking 10

Totalling: 41

So, 41 x 20 = 820 sps a week or 82 gold

Or about 128 weeks, or Two year to make a set of mithril plate armor with 1 elven smith and 6 helpers. Those guys only have to be able to get a 10 on aiding another with their craft skill. So, they are pretty much can be peasants.


Remember, plate armor usually, isn't made by one guy in his basement in this era. Unlike, today where you can go buy all the parts, I would expect a smith that can produce mithril full plate armor to have at least 20 assistants. Which would bring that number down alot.

15 + 4 tools + 40 assistants + 10 taken = 69 x 20 = 138 gps a week

Which gets it done within 76 weeks.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The craft rules are OK for some, maybe even most occasions, but where it breaks down is if you make the same item, except the materials are different: Let's say you make a simple ring made of iron, and a simple ring made of gold.

Iron is tougher to work with, while gold is soft and perfectly suited to such a task. But: The gold ring is worth more, therefore it takes longer to make, even though it should take less time due to the softness of the metal.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The craft rules are OK for some, maybe even most occasions, but where it breaks down is if you make the same item, except the materials are different: Let's say you make a simple ring made of iron, and a simple ring made of gold.

Iron is tougher to work with, while gold is soft and perfectly suited to such a task. But: The gold ring is worth more, therefore it takes longer to make, even though it should take less time due to the softness of the metal.

True. The DM should fudge the DC to take that into account.

OTOH, the iron ring would not be expected to have the same level of detail as the gold one. A gold MW ring would be a fabulous work of art. An iron MW ring would be very impressive...for an iron ring.

 

[hong]

You could replace (check result x DC) with (check result / DC) and fudge the constants.

 

[Lord Ben]

Actually, special materials like adamentine and mithril don't affect creation times. They're all considered masterwork for the creation time effect. It's in the SRD.

Weapons and armor fashioned from adamantine are treated as masterwork items with regard to creation times, but the masterwork quality does not affect the enhancement bonus of weapons or the armor check penalty of armor.

Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are treated as masterwork items with regard to creation times, but the masterwork quality does not affect the enhancement bonus of weapons or the armor check penalty of armor

The longest thing to make is masterwork full-plate.