Crossbow Expert redux

[TwoSix]

"It's probably OK" suggests you are thinking vonklaude found a weakness or point of abuse. What would that be?

I included the caveat only because any +hit bonus makes me nervous until I can look at it with a little more rigor, preferably some test builds to make sure there isn't a synergy I haven't thought of. Plus I simply tend to include caveats in all my speech, any sort of certainty makes me a little uncomfortable.

I'm guessing that by "it won't come online until level 5" you're referring to how a Fighter 1/Rogue X only gets his ASI/feat at that level, yes? And if so, you are entirely correct that from a player character's perspective the CE bonuses are really only relevant at the lowest level, so I would also assume that any PC that takes it because of numbers as opposed to color would do so as a variant human at level 1, where it really makes a difference.

Correct on all counts.

And yes, I am aware the other part of the feat, the one intended for PCs wanting to play the scimitar-and-handcrossbow archetype, still isn't particularly powerful, just like Dual Wielder isn't particularly powerful. (In my Feat Redux II, I have actually buffed Dual Wielder for being so weak.)

Considering that getting an at-will bonus action is such an important consideration for even moderately competent character building, I like expanding the feat list to include more ways to do so.

 

[Kobold Stew]

A few thoughts:

1. Currently, the most important benefit from the crossbow expert feat is the second bullet point, which takes away disadvantage for (all) ranged attack rolls when within 5'. That's powerful, and means the feat (despite the name) is widely used by archers and spellcasters. You're eliminating that aspect with the result that an important and fun feat ability is lost.

2. As you've noted, there are lots of sliding parts, and this works better with a revised fighting style. That makes it harder to take only some of your suggestions -- they become too interlinked. I'd suggest making the feat work on its own, rather than be balanced only with other changes.

3. I find the combination of to hit and damage bonuses too much -- crossbows are already an effective weapon. Yes, they become terrifying this way, but it seems too much.
I've got two suggestions.
* First would be to adjust the damage bonus as follows:
Additionally, you may add your strength bonus to damage with two-handed crossbows. This expands it to light crossbows too (so small users can benefit), but requires player investment. It also reflects something about the nature of loading crossbows.
* Secondly, if you are keeping the bonus to hit (and the feat is mighty effective without it), I would suggest giving the feat a prerequisite of 13 Strength.

Hope this helps.

 

[clearstream]

Crossbow Expert Feat
• +2 to attack with two-handed crossbows
• +5 to damage with heavy crossbows
• You don't suffer disadvantage when making a ranged attack with a hand crossbow when within reach of a hostile creature
• When you use the Attack action and attack with a onehanded weapon, you can use a bonus action to load and attack with a hand crossbow.

The third bullet point could - read perversely - be taken to mean that so long as you stay within reach of a hostile creature, you don't suffer disadvantage (from any source).

Perhaps - "Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your attack rolls with a hand crossbow."

 

[CapnZapp]

1. Currently, the most important benefit from the crossbow expert feat is the second bullet point, which takes away disadvantage for (all) ranged attack rolls when within 5'. That's powerful, and means the feat (despite the name) is widely used by archers and spellcasters. You're eliminating that aspect with the result that an important and fun feat ability is lost.

Ensuring archers (any ranged character) cannot immunize themselves to getting embroiled in melee indeed the first and foremost reason for my changes.

 

[CapnZapp]

2. As you've noted, there are lots of sliding parts, and this works better with a revised fighting style. That makes it harder to take only some of your suggestions -- they become too interlinked. I'd suggest making the feat work on its own, rather than be balanced only with other changes.

Feel free. Use or reuse any of my ideas as you wish.

As for myself, this entire thread focuses in on only one aspect of a larger work. It does so not primarily to present a complete suggestion, but to discuss certain aspects that previous were discussed in contexts I couldn't fully agree with. Rather than to hijack/derail those other threads, I started my own, so I could discuss without risking to come across as someone taking a dump on someone else's work.

Specifically, I wanted to discuss the scimitar + hand crossbow archtype from the understanding that the character should be able to fire her hand crossbow every turn, with no issues relating to object interaction, or the ammunition/loading keywords.

3. I find the combination of to hit and damage bonuses too much -- crossbows are already an effective weapon. Yes, they become terrifying this way, but it seems too much.
I've got two suggestions.
* First would be to adjust the damage bonus as follows:
Additionally, you may add your strength bonus to damage with two-handed crossbows. This expands it to light crossbows too (so small users can benefit), but requires player investment. It also reflects something about the nature of loading crossbows.
* Secondly, if you are keeping the bonus to hit (and the feat is mighty effective without it), I would suggest giving the feat a prerequisite of 13 Strength.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. Well, if the game was focused on level 1 play, I would have agreed with you. As it is, already at fifth level, this feat fades from the powergamer's radar.

I didn't want to make it overly complex for what in the end is an "atmosphere/local color" feat for a player character.

If you build a character around it sure you're going to impress at level four. But not more overpoweringly so than the level two of a Druid, say.

In the end analysis, I see it as shoring up a few medium-weak builds, but not actually wrecking anything.

I am willing to discuss this though. Certainly if you can convince me the feat is too strong I shall keep the door to adjustments open. Do keep in mind however, that the numbers (+2! +5!) do initially come across as strong, but remember the context - it's hard to minmax them in a power combo.

I don't see any martial character profiting from a weapon choice that remains incompatible with Extra Attack, is the short of it. The Rogue is the prime candidate, but IMHO it needs every edge it can get (meaning five points of extra damage isn't breaking anything), and running around with a heavy crossbow is impractical for several reasons. Where do you even get proficiency from?

As for an ability prerequisite I would sadly only forget eventually to check so my NPCs actually meet them and doesn't "cheat". Having the feat be freely available is a plus in my book.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Ensuring archers (any ranged character) cannot immunize themselves to getting embroiled in melee indeed the first and foremost reason for my changes.

Mission accomplished!

 

[CapnZapp]

The third bullet point could - read perversely - be taken to mean that so long as you stay within reach of a hostile creature, you don't suffer disadvantage (from any source).

I'll have to think about this one.

 

[Kobold Stew]

edit in posting

 

[Kobold Stew]

error in posting

 

[Kobold Stew]

Specifically, I wanted to discuss the scimitar + hand crossbow archtype from the understanding that the character should be able to fire her hand crossbow every turn, with no issues relating to object interaction, or the ammunition/loading keywords.

Fair enough; except you've just said that you are trying to avoid using ranged weapons at melee range, right? Is the "archetype" the exception to that? or is it someone hacking at someone nearby while getting off a cool ranged attack at the same time, sniping at the goblin that's trying to get away, or whatever?

Your fourth bulletpoint accomplishes this (though I'd say "attack with a melee weapon one-handed" rather than "attack with a one-handed weapon").

In the end analysis, I see it as shoring up a few medium-weak builds, but not actually wrecking anything.

I am willing to discuss this though. Certainly if you can convince me the feat is too strong I shall keep the door to adjustments open. Do keep in mind however, that the numbers (+2! +5!) do initially come across as strong, but remember the context - it's hard to minmax them in a power combo.

I'm not a min-max expert, and I won't crunch the numbers. I am giving you an impression. Speaking as a player who revels in medium-weak builds, and who has played a lot of clerics and rogues, I have to say that the feat seems like a no-brainer -- even more than the current crossbow expert, it reads like something I would want to take.

The Rogue is the prime candidate, but IMHO it needs every edge it can get (meaning five points of extra damage isn't breaking anything), and running around with a heavy crossbow is impractical for several reasons. Where do you even get proficiency from?

Ah -- okay, so this is why the damage comes only for heavy crossbows; to exclude rogues. I had thought you were making a claim about the nature of the weapons itself (and that's why I suggested expanding it to all 2-handed crossbows).

But the argument "5 points of damage isn't breaking anything" doesn't really hold. 7 points is the expected gain on Sneak attack with four levels difference. This bonus apples whether or not sneak attack kicks in; we can call it a wash, but I could argue it's stronger. so for a rogue that's an effective +4 character levels on your primary attack. That seems pretty strong.

And that's before the +2 to hit, which obviates the need many rogues have for taking a 1-level dip in fighter.

As for an ability prerequisite I would sadly only forget eventually to check so my NPCs actually meet them and doesn't "cheat". Having the feat be freely available is a plus in my book.

"freely available" is another dodge. The phb feats with prereqs are freely available but you need a certain ability minimum; INT or WIS to become a ritual caster, CHA to become an inspiring leader. There is a logical connection between the minimum and the ability, as there would be here -- extra damage, extra penetration coming from the ability to use strength to ready the crossbow more.

Or that would be my take.