Customer Service on Divine Challenge

[Calidarien]

While getting involved in several threads debating the nuances of Divine Challenge, I hadn't seen anyone appeal to Customer Service, so I asked them myself. In brief, the radiant damage can occur on multiple turns, there may be some subtlety with readied actions that trigger radiant damage, and the whole "Invisible Paladin" thread boils down to DM discretion. See comments afterwards.

Question:

I have several questions about the paladin class feature Divine Challenge.

1. The part regarding radiant damage, especially the clause "before the start of your next turn", is confusing. Does the target incur radiant damage for qualifying attacks for multiple turns (i.e. every turn that the paladin maintains the challenge) or only for the single turn immediately following the initiation of the challenge?

2. Assume that the target has readied an attack on a third party (someone other than the paladin) that is triggered if the paladin moves on the paladin's turn. Note that this readied attack could thus occur before the paladin has maintained the marked condition by engaging the target.
(a) Does the target suffer the radiant damage?
(b) Does this mean that on the target's next turn (which should now come immediately before the paladin's next turn), the target can attack a third party without taking radiant damage because it has already been triggered?

3) Consider the situation where the target cannot actually target the paladin (e.g. the target is blind or the paladin is invisible), so it targets a square, fully intending to try to hit the paladin. Does the target suffer radiant damage if:
(a) the target happens to guess the right square to target and attack?
(b) the target guesses the wrong square and attacks empty air?
(c) the target guesses the wrong square and attacks a third party?

Response (from Cody):

I'll answer your questions in order:

1. The marked foe takes damage once each turn if it makes an attack that doesn't include the paladin as long as the mark is maintained.

2. a. If the paladin has challenged the target before triggering the readied action, the target will take the radiant damage. The challenge only goes down if the paladin hasn't attacked or moved adjacent by the end of his turn.
b. On the target's next turn, immediately before the paladin, if it attacks someone else, it will take the damage. The previous damage would count for the previous round.

3. This will be entirely up to your DM to decide, whether the sincere attempt to attack the paladin is enough.

Good gaming!

Question 1: It was already majority opinion, but it's nice to have a clear-cut response.

Question 2: I was trying to ask whether readied actions, which ostensibly occur after the start of the paladin's turn, would be grouped with the previous paladin-turn-to-paladin-turn interval or the next turn-to-turn interval in terms of doling out radiant damage. Assuming that Cody did not get confused by my question, his response seems to say that a readied action would be grouped with the previous turn-to-turn interval.

Question 3: The "Invisible Paladin" thread seemed to be pretty split between the "technical aspects of targeting" camp and the "intent" camp (with me in the latter), so I guess it's appropriate that Customer Service leaves it up to the DM.

Let the debating recommence!

 

[Runestar]

For 3, cust-serv could just as readily have provided the designers' intent on how divine challenge was supposed to work anyways, with the provision that you could always houserule otherwise if the implementation was not to your liking, rather than brushing us off with "let your DM decide". If we would do so, why even bother asking them in the first place?

I think it is their way of saying "I have no idea".

 

[HeinorNY]

What's the problem with
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target is magically compelled to attack you on his next turn.
Special: You can use this power only once per round.

 

[Runestar]

What's the problem with
Attack: Charisma vs. Will
Hit: The target is magically compelled to attack you on his next turn.
Special: You can use this power only once per round.

It still doesn't resolve the problem of the paladin turning invis. In fact, it appears to only exacerbate it, since the marked enemy does not have the option of sucking up the penalties and attacking another PC.

 

[Bill Bisco]

It still doesn't resolve the problem of the paladin turning invis. In fact, it appears to only exacerbate it, since the marked enemy does not have the option of sucking up the penalties and attacking another PC.

This is why Paladin Warlocks are fun !

 

[jaldaen]

This is why Paladin Warlocks are fun !

Or Warlock Paladins (at least until WotC says DC only last one round)

 

[FadedC]

It still doesn't resolve the problem of the paladin turning invis. In fact, it appears to only exacerbate it, since the marked enemy does not have the option of sucking up the penalties and attacking another PC.

Also the whole point of defenders it that they punish their foe for not attacking them, not that they force their foe to attack them.

 

[HeinorNY]

It still doesn't resolve the problem of the paladin turning invis. In fact, it appears to only exacerbate it, since the marked enemy does not have the option of sucking up the penalties and attacking another PC.

There are no penalties. If the target can't attack the paladin because the paladin run away, turned invisible, etc, it just attacks anybody else normally. The power simply fails.

Also the whole point of defenders it that they punish their foe for not attacking them, not that they force their foe to attack them.

Which is, in the end, the same thing.
Are you really saying that magically damaging an enemy that doesn't attack the paladin is not forcing him to attack the paladin?
Of course it is. It's an over-complicated taunt machanic, made that way to not look like a taunt mechanic. But the whole point behind the power is to make the monsters attack the paladin instead of his allies.
I have no problems with taunt mechanics, but please, keep them simple.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

Which is, in the end, the same thing.
Are you really saying that magically damaging an enemy that doesn't attack the paladin is not forcing him to attack the paladin?

I am. It gives the creature a choice. If it's a creature with 100, 200, or, say, 1000 hit points, the decision whether to take, for example, 7 points of damage from divine challenge is an interesting one. At the start of the fight, the creature can probably ignore it if it really wants to; as it gets more and more beat up, that gets to be a harder choice, but it is still a choice.
The CHA v Will method removes that choice - and also makes it more effective against the more brutish opponents, unlike the stadndard system (they tend to have low WILL saves, but higher hit points).

 

[Runestar]

Which is, in the end, the same thing.
Are you really saying that magically damaging an enemy that doesn't attack the paladin is not forcing him to attack the paladin?

No. Because the monster has the choice of opting to suck up the penalties and attack another PC. Do you think that a dragon with 200+ hp is going to worry about losing 9hp when it knows that a flurry of blows could potentially cripple the wizard, as compared to barely scratching the paladin?

It is ultimately a matter of weighing the pros and cons. Attacking the paladin will not grant any drawbacks, but bear in mind that the paladin is built for tanking (with a high AC and good hp), so that might be construed as a drawback in itself. Is it worth it to take the penalties and attack the more fragile PCs at the back? Maybe, maybe not. The DM decides.

But it is definitely too much of a stretch to say that the enemy is under some obligation to attack the paladin over anyone else just because it is marked.