CW: Warshaper PrC and Changelings

[Anti-Sean]

copied from the Detail Discussion thread, since I was a goober and posted the question there instead of in a new thread:

And now for the opening of the can of worms: Has a ruling been made on the Warshaper prestige class from Complete Warrior? There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth re: Changeling's early qualification for the PrC, and their ability to take advantage of its benefits most/all of the time. Normally, the class benefits are offset by qualifying as either a monster with a huge LA, or a class/class combo that only allows you to partake of its benefits for a limited amount of time. There are also some concerns about shifters accessing the PrC, but those seem to be somewhat more muted.

I don't have a dog in this hunt; I loves me some changelings, like the PrC, and would probably allow the combo in a game of my own, but I won't lose too much sleep if it's watered down or disallowed entirely.

As to Changelings, I would say that they should not qualify for the benefits by the spirit of the class, though by the exact wording they do

"By the spirit" of the class, I think they would qualify---the class teaches them to use their subtype beyond what they could before. I think the main balance is level: Druids cannot enter it until 7th, Wizards at 8th or 9th (depending if they take a dip in fighter for the BAB), or most of the monsters until ECL 7/8. So, adding an ECL prereq. for changelings (so a changeling fighter could become a warshapper at 7th or 8th level) would assist in the balancing (i.e., you don't want the 5th level changeling to be a warshaper).

The spirit of the class is that it used by those who shift shapes to access combat forms. Changelings do not--in fact, they don't gain any abilities from the form shift, so it is used for deception, not combat.

You're right - most changelings use their abilities for deception. But given a race with so many unique identities possible for each changeling, I could easily see one/a few changeling(s) of a more martial bent than most honing their abilities in this new and exciting direction. I see the potential problems as being mechanical. They wind up with more than the equivalent of two +4 stat bonus items (which, IIRC, are unnamed bonuses) and fast healing that can be used outside of combat encounters to almost entirely remove the need for clerical attention.

Food for thought!

The Changeling's abilities do not allow them to assume martial capacities of their forms though (for instance, changing to an Orc does not even grant them a bonus to Strength), which is what leads me to believe that the flavour clashes.

fast healing that can be used outside of combat encounters to almost entirely remove the need for clerical attention.

This is a big deal. Fast Healing permanently is a serious problem, which is why the 'Healock' clerical Warlock that is often proposed would be so game-breaking. And yeah, the two +4s are unnamed, but they are less of an issue.

 

[stonegod]

I haven't thought about the fast healing issue yet, but I will counter the "deception-only" with the doppelganger which has access to the PrC (which I don't have a problem with). Again, I see this as special training in extending your gained or native shifting abilities.

I will think on the rest of the abilities tonight.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I haven't thought about the fast healing issue yet, but I will counter the "deception-only" with the doppelganger which has access to the PrC (which I don't have a problem with). Again, I see this as special training in extending your gained or native shifting abilities.

I will think on the rest of the abilities tonight.

But the Doppleganger uses Change Shape, which reads "The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form." Thus, it is certainly a feasible choice for a combat shaper (for instance, want Claws? Go Lizardfolk). The Changeling shapeshift does not give you any of the abilities of the new form, so it isn't a combat shapeshift. Am I still not explaining this well? I ask because you don't seem to be addressing my point, so I think it is because I'm not explaining well enough.

 

[Anti-Sean]

But the Doppleganger uses Change Shape, which reads "The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form." Thus, it is certainly a feasible choice for a combat shaper (for instance, want Claws? Go Lizardfolk). The Changeling shapeshift does not give you any of the abilities of the new form, so it isn't a combat shapeshift. Am I still not explaining this well? I ask because you don't seem to be addressing my point, so I think it is because I'm not explaining well enough.

Well, the Cabinet Trickster PrC from Races of Eberron allows a changeling to tap into its doppleganger heritage and develop some minor mental powers. As I see it, the warshaper can be seen as doing the same, but with physical abilities. Combine the talents from its dopple ancestry and some leftover good ol' human ingenuity, and voila! Perhaps you could tack on an organizational requirement to the PrC, and limit it to a subset of agents working for the Cabinet of Faces (or some other group).

That still doesn't speak to the potential for constant fast healing access/Concentration checks for healing, or the equivalent of 32,000k gp+ in magic items they get for free through the PrC, though.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Let me put it another way:

Fundamentally, the Warshaper PrC was created for characters who, even before they got into the PrC, were changing from their natural shape to one that was more effective in combat, maybe gaining claws, possibly a greater strength, etc. Those who can do this are Wizards, Druids, some Clerics, Psions, and high-level monsters like Dopplegangers and Phasms. In taking the PrC, they eschew further progression in their main area (generally spellcasting) to focus on shifting shapes to combat-ready forms, which they have been doing before.

Changelings are not doing this, however. They just switch cosmetic appearance, like the Change Self spell but as a Transmutation effect. Allowing them to use Warshaper, while it doesn't violate the prereqs, violates the flavour of a character who has chosen to focus on shifting shapes to combatant forms, since the Changeling cannot do this.

 

[stonegod]

But the Doppleganger uses Change Shape, which reads "The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form." Thus, it is certainly a feasible choice for a combat shaper (for instance, want Claws? Go Lizardfolk). The Changeling shapeshift does not give you any of the abilities of the new form, so it isn't a combat shapeshift. Am I still not explaining this well? I ask because you don't seem to be addressing my point, so I think it is because I'm not explaining well enough.

I see your distinction now. However, as pointed out by Anti-Sean, the Warshaper can be seen as "tapping-into" the latent doppel heritage to gain these abilities (as I have previously argued) just as the shifter gains going into the weretouched shifter PrC. In my mind, the problem is not so much as the reasons for qualifying, but how to balance it out if we allow it to qualify as-is.

BTW: Shifters qualify for Warshaper as well (Shapechanger subtype) but would only gain the effects while shifting (assuming you read shifting as an "alternate form").

 

[Ferrix]

I see your distinction now. However, as pointed out by Anti-Sean, the Warshaper can be seen as "tapping-into" the latent doppel heritage to gain these abilities (as I have previously argued) just as the shifter gains going into the weretouched shifter PrC. In my mind, the problem is not so much as the reasons for qualifying, but how to balance it out if we allow it to qualify as-is.

BTW: Shifters qualify for Warshaper as well (Shapechanger subtype) but would only gain the effects while shifting (assuming you read shifting as an "alternate form").

Actually a lot of the warshaper abilities are constant I believe.

 

[SelcSilverhand]

Once one of my players took the warshaper PrC, the others couldn't help but notice how powerful it was and nearly all of them ended up with a few levels of it. Changling rogue/assassin/warshaper was one of them. He used a spiked chain and the morphic reach to hit everything in 20'. Plus combat reflexes to hit anyone that tried to move in his area. Then the natural weapon to perform unarmed assassinations. Werewolf/fighter used it to make his jaws do more damage (plus the necklace of natural attacks from Savage Species to make his attacks magic). Then there was a changling soulknife in the party that wasn't overwhelming but had to take the PrC when he saw the advantages that the other two had.

Actually a lot of the warshaper abilities are constant I believe.

The caption for the warshaper reads that their abilities function when the character is in a form that isn't their own. For a changling this means all the time. For a shifter it is only when shifting. Same thing goes for druids, wizards, and lycanthrope/fighters =P

When limited by how often you can use the abilities the PrC isn't so overwhelming. But when its abilities can be used by a race 24/7 it becomes a bit unbalanced.

 

[Velmont]

I think the warshaper could do a fine PrC for a shifter, but it's true it would be too string in the hand of a Changeling.

 

[Bront]

I've never been fond of the Warshaper's balance, but I'd have to pour over it some more. I'm leaning negitively towards allowing a changeling to enter it either way though.