D&D 3E/3.5 [D&D 3.5] Winged creature taking off question

[anest1s]

Here is my question:

If I have a land speed of 40ft. and a fly speed of 100ft. with poor maneuverability, how I take off?

Minimum Forward Speed

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

With that in mind, my DM suggests that I need to move on a straight line for 50ft. on land using my fly speed (so it will be easier to calculate how much movement I have left when I am on air than double moving) before I am able to take off.

On the other hand I believe that I can fly on the spot, and I just have to fly 50ft away to avoid falling.


I want either me or my DM to be convinced about which is right.

Also, what action taking off would be?
And if I walk-fly-walk or fly-walk-fly (etc) is there a way to calculate how far I can move?

 

[Greenfield]

First, your DM is right, simply because he's the DM.

Other than that, though, there's nothing in the "Poor" maneuverability class that says you need a running start.

So what kind of action is it to take off? A Move action, of course.

As for your walk-fly-walk question: I don't see it coming up. You get a maximum of two Move actions in a round, not three. So Walk would be up to 40 and Fly would be from 50 to 100. Add them together as you see fit.

 

[anest1s]

First, your DM is right, simply because he's the DM.

No, I meant what is right by RAW.

So what kind of action is it to take off? A Move action, of course.

Why so? I can't find this anywhere.

As for your walk-fly-walk question: I don't see it coming up. You get a maximum of two Move actions in a round, not three. So Walk would be up to 40 and Fly would be from 50 to 100. Add them together as you see fit.

I fly for 20 ft then walk for 10 ft then continue my flight...then end my move action, and attack.

 

[Greenfield]

First, Rule Zero is RAW.

What sort of action is it to start walking? Rules don't say. Do you know why?

Because "starting" something isn't an action. Only doing it is.

So Fly is a Move action. So are walking, hustling, running, swimming, and any number of other things.

The SRD describes a flier with "poor" maneuverability as being able to fly like any large bird. Most birds (large ones included) take off with a little jump.

Perhaps he's thinking of water foul, who can't stand up on the water or jump from its surface, and have to fight the drag of the water to reach air speed. Those guys need to build up speed. But if you look at the way an eagle or condor takes off from the ground, thy just hop and flap and they're airborne.

If you want to convince the DM, look up a few nature scenes on Youtube that show a large bird taking off. Then point at the Maneuverability rules in the book that say you fly like any large bird.

Now, you want to change movement modes several times in a move? If your DM allows it as part of a single Move action then your maximum distance is somewhere between zero and your flight speed. Where in that range? Absolutely up to you, since you're the one decides how much walk and how much fly is in the mix.

 

[shagadm]

So what kind of action is it to take off? A Move action, of course.

Yes flying is a move action, and that move action allows you to move from 5ft to 100 feet (your maximum flying speed), but you have 0 altitude, because of poor maneuverability you can only move upwards at half speed and at a maximum degree of 45 angles. Now from the first 5 feet, I guess you could say you are flying, but unless you move at list half your flying speed, because of your minimmum forward speed (again because of poor maneuverability), you will fall 150ft down, witch is more than you could have climbed in your turn, thus failing to take off.

So to summarize, you move at half speed, because you are climbing and you have to move at list 50ft or you fail to stay up (for me that's failure to take off). Your move action lets you move 100ft, half of that is 50, so you will have to spend one move action (50ft) to take off and reach an altitude of 35ft and 35ft in front of the square you started your move. (remember when counting squares on your climb, that 45 angle is diagonal movement and therefore every 2nd square is 10ft).

After that first move action you are at 35ft altitude and 35 ft ahead of your starting square. You could spend your standard action as move action and either continue to climb (again at half speed, 45 angle and remember to count every 2nd square as 10ft) or straighten-up and move 100ft ahead.

Its sound easy but it really isn't, especially if you try to calculate all that while playing in a 4 players group and some of them are talking about what the will do on their turn (you are doing all that while the rest of the party is fighting), adding their own thoughts on how the flying movement should work, finding something to joke about the situation and/or possible arguing about the flying rules realism... gets even worse if you decide to also turn while you climb.

So I understand you DM (which happens to be me ) if he tries to simplify the rules and limit your flying combat manoeuvres only on large or opened areas and not in dungeons or other indoor areas (even if technically there is enough room), and instead focus in the more traditional combat.

 

[Greenfield]

Alternately, you could climb for 5 feet (spending 10 feet of movement), then level off for the other 90 feet of flight that round and easily top the 50% movement required to stay aloft.

If you climbed for the full move, you'd move 50 feet (not 35), since move at half speed when climbing, and half of your 100 foot flight speed is 50.

So even then you'd meet the 50% requirement.

Now from the first 5 feet, I guess you could say you are flying, but unless you move at list half your flying speed, because of your minimmum forward speed (again because of poor maneuverability), you will fall 150ft down, witch is more than you could have climbed in your turn, thus failing to take off.

You could also fly a shorter distance and land at the end of the move, an option specifically given in the rules. Such a move isn't a "failed take off", it's just a short-hop flight, starting and ending on the ground.

Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling...

See? He can take off and land all in a round, without having to ever really achieve minimum forward speed. He just can't stay aloft if he falls below that speed.

 

[Deset Gled]

If I have a land speed of 40ft. and a fly speed of 100ft. with poor maneuverability, how I take off?

Where does the fly speed come from? It's possibly not relevant to the rules discussion, but plays a big part in the hand-wavy justification of the mechanics.

 

[anest1s]

Where does the fly speed come from? It's possibly not relevant to the rules discussion, but plays a big part in the hand-wavy justification of the mechanics.

From wings. Dragon ones.

 

[shagadm]

More specific a large red dragon, which according to draconomicon page 51 has a minimum wingspan of 18 ft. and a maximum of 45ft..