MerakSpielman
First Post
Well of course I'LL want to have a look at the new EoM... I just doubt I can convince my players to go along with it. They're leery about new rule (sub)systems.
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D&D 4.0 - What the?
- Thread starter Herremann the Wise
- Start date
RangerWickett
Legend
Foremost, the goal for the game system will be to entertain those who enjoy the style of gaming which D&D is known for, and to not alienate those whose interest align closely but not precisely with that style.
Under this large grouping, we have several important points to keep in mind.
Now, the magic system is my personal highest interest, because I just like magic. I don't expect 4.0 to look like Elements of Magic, which I just spent 6 months updating, streamlining, and makingcoolizing. But some of the assumptions of magic should be looked at. It never hurts to reconsider something you've been doing the same way for decades.
Under this large grouping, we have several important points to keep in mind.
- Sacred cows. The specifics vary from person to person, but we all know there are some things that make D&D feel like D&D. There will be classes. There will be levels (probably 20 primary ones). The core races won't alter much, though I fear a bit for gnomes. We'll still be rolling d20s.
- Interesting combat. D&D developed from wargames, and it's still the Hollywood Action Blockbuster of RPGs. The game has to be able to handle many different styles of action, and many different styles of combat. There will undoubtedly be an edging toward flashy, over-the-top battles where the phrase "'Tis merely a flesh wound" could be used every six seconds, but the system shouldn't make it impossible to run more grim adventures in which a Goblin ambush can kill a party.
- Encouragement of roleplaying. We all know that a game full of intense, daring combat can be enjoyable, but we also know that drama and action doesn't have to involve killing stuff. Design the system so classics of fantasy action are feasible -- chasing a fugitive, leading an army, outwitting enemies you can't defeat in a fight -- and so that people who want to just roleplay through danger don't feel like the game system isn't helping. When the system makes allowances for, and even encourages alternative types of action, the game benefits from greater depth.
- In general, fun. You know what's fun? Playing an adventure. You know what's more fun? Finishing that adventure twice as fast, so you can play more adventure before going home. Right now, a few things are clunky. The sheer number of dice needed for high-level combat, especially with lots of disposable minions, slows the game down. You know what else is fun? Being a hero. I haven't tried Action Points from D20 Modern, but I imagine they help players be more willing to dare. Things that make it easier for characters to do cool stuff is good.
- Style flexibility. Playing D&D using GURPS's rules would be so frikkin' hard. You'd have to have 300-pt. characters just to have something even resembling the amount of damage absorption PCs can handle. If D&D 4.0 can keep its high fantasy roots while being easily toggled into a gritty style game, I'll be impressed.
- The Open Gaming License. I can't say with any authority what it was like before the D20 System went open, but I know I'm much happier to help my fellow D&D gamer than I would be trying to compete by publishing a completely different game. Plus I'd be a hypocrite, because I'd still play D&D, most likely.
Now, the magic system is my personal highest interest, because I just like magic. I don't expect 4.0 to look like Elements of Magic, which I just spent 6 months updating, streamlining, and makingcoolizing. But some of the assumptions of magic should be looked at. It never hurts to reconsider something you've been doing the same way for decades.
Larcen
Explorer
I am amazed, shocked even. That no one else likes the idea to see the 4.0 beta before WotC makes it law. Remember, I am not saying that the system should be built by a disorganized mob. WotC still needs to put together the beta, on their own, before releasing it for mass consumption. And then they need to do the finalizing.
I'd imagine if they had done this with 3.5 we wouldn't have to live with the new weapon size rules for instance. Or the new DR rules. The whole open content concept was based on software, so why not take it a step further and let people see betas first?
Ha. I am watching American Idol as I type this and suddenly I am getting the idea that I am one of those contestants on the show that are so sure that what they have is good, but not realizing that everyone else thinks they are crazy. And I don't want to be one of those contestants.
I'd imagine if they had done this with 3.5 we wouldn't have to live with the new weapon size rules for instance. Or the new DR rules. The whole open content concept was based on software, so why not take it a step further and let people see betas first?
Ha. I am watching American Idol as I type this and suddenly I am getting the idea that I am one of those contestants on the show that are so sure that what they have is good, but not realizing that everyone else thinks they are crazy. And I don't want to be one of those contestants.
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A'koss
Explorer
Okay, I'll play too...
My 4e Wishlist!
1. No more "One hit wonders"!! Save or Die/Nerf magic and abilities get the boot. No high level character (or even mid-level character for that matter) at full health should have to worry about being taken down by a single roll unless the foe they are fighting is far out of their league. Incorporate some kind of mental HPs perhaps that can absorb Will Save/Nerf spells as "mental damage", powers, etc. I'm actually trying out a concept called Resolve Points which does exactly this.
2. In the same vein, tone down high level damage. There is too much damage being churned out at high levels and this creates battles that are highly initiative dependent and potentially all too short. Make it harder to die, and harder to come back.
3. Compress the disparities between the PCs. Armor Class, Attack bonuses, Hit Points, Saving Throws, Stats. Remove stats bonuses from Spell DCs. Higher level characters become too polarized in power - they can make their good saves, but their weak saves become increasingly difficult to impossible. If you create an encounter that will challenge your Barbarian, your Wizard is often 1 round roadkill... and simliar issues.
4. Reduce dependency on magic items. Obviously, I can see that many others share in this desire and for the same reasons. Tone down the spellcasters to compensate. If you compres the disparities between the classes, the wizard won't require as much power to keep him on par with the other classes.
5. Either dump or offer other options in leiu of Vancian Magic.
6. Roll back the number of powers a single creature can have. Some monsters are such stat abominations that you have to spend considerable time just trying to figure out how to run them in a halfway intelligent manner. On top of which you have to try and not forget that it has X, Y or Z power that could be crucial at some point during the encounter. For example, no monster should have default spellcaster levels on top a horde of other special abilities, tactics and feats and then mental stats in the 20's, 30's and 40's on top of this.
7. Classes - I don't really care how it's done, just make them balanced and playable at high and epic levels. And part of being more playable is for the game to be more predictable at high levels. The less the DM has to worry about game balance, the more time he can spend on the campaign itself.
Cheers,
A'koss.
My 4e Wishlist!
1. No more "One hit wonders"!! Save or Die/Nerf magic and abilities get the boot. No high level character (or even mid-level character for that matter) at full health should have to worry about being taken down by a single roll unless the foe they are fighting is far out of their league. Incorporate some kind of mental HPs perhaps that can absorb Will Save/Nerf spells as "mental damage", powers, etc. I'm actually trying out a concept called Resolve Points which does exactly this.
2. In the same vein, tone down high level damage. There is too much damage being churned out at high levels and this creates battles that are highly initiative dependent and potentially all too short. Make it harder to die, and harder to come back.
3. Compress the disparities between the PCs. Armor Class, Attack bonuses, Hit Points, Saving Throws, Stats. Remove stats bonuses from Spell DCs. Higher level characters become too polarized in power - they can make their good saves, but their weak saves become increasingly difficult to impossible. If you create an encounter that will challenge your Barbarian, your Wizard is often 1 round roadkill... and simliar issues.
4. Reduce dependency on magic items. Obviously, I can see that many others share in this desire and for the same reasons. Tone down the spellcasters to compensate. If you compres the disparities between the classes, the wizard won't require as much power to keep him on par with the other classes.
5. Either dump or offer other options in leiu of Vancian Magic.
6. Roll back the number of powers a single creature can have. Some monsters are such stat abominations that you have to spend considerable time just trying to figure out how to run them in a halfway intelligent manner. On top of which you have to try and not forget that it has X, Y or Z power that could be crucial at some point during the encounter. For example, no monster should have default spellcaster levels on top a horde of other special abilities, tactics and feats and then mental stats in the 20's, 30's and 40's on top of this.
7. Classes - I don't really care how it's done, just make them balanced and playable at high and epic levels. And part of being more playable is for the game to be more predictable at high levels. The less the DM has to worry about game balance, the more time he can spend on the campaign itself.
Cheers,
A'koss.
A'koss
Explorer
Nice idea in theory, untenable in practice. They could barely keep up the feedback they were getting from their playtesters let alone the mountains of feedback they'd gain from some 3 month open beta. Also remember that a RPG isn't like some pre-scripted game where a problem is a problem and you go fix that problem. A problem could be just someone using a rule incorrectly or simply not understanding any number of myriad elements in the game and how they interact. Mystic Theurge anyone?
Cheers,
A'koss.
Larcen
Explorer
A'koss said:
My feeling is that no matter what it takes it would be worth it in the long run. At the very least there wouldn't be a lot of errata put out shortly after the books are printed. So far we've had 3.0, 3.0 errata, 3.0 second printing, 3.5, 3.5 errata. I for one don't want to go thru that again in 4E. How much of that could have been prevented by more extensive and wide ranging playtesting I wonder.
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RangerWickett
Legend
Everyone's so down on Vancian Magic. What in particular is the problem you guys have?
TheAuldGrump
First Post
And because no one else has: http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=NPNews&file=index
This whole thing is being blown up over one entry mentioned on a joke poll on gamingreport.com .
But, just to have fun:
Remove the darned grid from the game along with square monsters.
Come up with a way to balance new classes/prestige classes.
Find a way not to hose multiclass spellcasters.
Go back to the 1 page 1 monster format from the 2nd ed. Monstrous Compendium.
The Auld Grump
This whole thing is being blown up over one entry mentioned on a joke poll on gamingreport.com .
But, just to have fun:
Remove the darned grid from the game along with square monsters.
Come up with a way to balance new classes/prestige classes.
Find a way not to hose multiclass spellcasters.
Go back to the 1 page 1 monster format from the 2nd ed. Monstrous Compendium.
The Auld Grump
Let Hero be Hero
Just a point to make.
D&D is about making characters into Heroes (or Villians).
So I would like to see tougher 1st level character class in D&D v4.0.
Don't see my point? Go watch Lord of the Rings.
Heroes may die but they bring most of the enemies down before they perished. The rest are unkillable (look at how Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the rest kill the orcs, trolls and elephants with styles and skills). Even the "stupid" Hobbit (forget the name) can damage a big spider single handedly.
Well I don't mind all the base class, more feats and skills would be good to customized multiclasses like fighter/mage.
make the spellcasting ability like in the Epic rule by skill points would be great.
Just a point to make.
D&D is about making characters into Heroes (or Villians).
So I would like to see tougher 1st level character class in D&D v4.0.
Don't see my point? Go watch Lord of the Rings.
Heroes may die but they bring most of the enemies down before they perished. The rest are unkillable (look at how Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and the rest kill the orcs, trolls and elephants with styles and skills). Even the "stupid" Hobbit (forget the name) can damage a big spider single handedly.
Well I don't mind all the base class, more feats and skills would be good to customized multiclasses like fighter/mage.
make the spellcasting ability like in the Epic rule by skill points would be great.
