D&D (2024) D&D 6th edition - What do you want to see?

[Blue]

Heh.

Sometimes I think you're both right (or wrong, or there's not a difference between right and wrong in this context)...

Yeah, there's an idea (myth?) maybe even intent, that the game be played at a certain, specific pacing that could, on paper, balance hyper-versatile, high-peak-power, casters with the few benighted non-caster options, with an extra helping of complexity in the form of short rest-based classes on top of the traditional LFQW.

Is it /really/ the intent that anyone actually run adventures that grueling, though? Or is it just something to point to when someone complains that classes are radically imbalance ("they're not, your just doin' it wrong!")?
...IDK anymore....

This is why I like 13th Age. Nice gamist solution: at-will, per encounter, or per full-heal-up which happens every four encounters.

But in 5e, I'm happier and happier with rest variants to spread the time so I can throw encounters at whatever pace best fits the narrative, and have wiggle room to make it fit the resource management modules. Of course, that's with a little cheating - AiME style sanctuaries a la Elrond's Last Homely House where they can get a full rest overnight, or a magic fountain that grants a rest if I'm running a more traditional dungeon instead of a Five Room Dungeon concept.

 

[5ekyu]

Better wording on encounters per day to dispel the myths that it's not an important balance point between the long rest, short rest, and at-will primary classes determined by testing and design. Special attention towards dispelling the myth that tougher encounters use more of all resources from all classes in even mounts.

I honestly cannot say that I have seen anyone claim that "tougher encounters use more of all resources from all classes in even mounts" or that any encounter would "use all resources from all classes in even mounts" in any case.

Are you saying you have? I certainly did not see anything about it in the DMG, where the usual reflection on resources is "party redources" not character by class comparisons.

If so, yup, that needs to get cleared right up too.

Heck, if I had my druthers, the gistbof the balancing encounters eould be on much more reactive to what your party is than any generic party stuff. It would emphasize how specific challenge types chosen by the GM are more what creates imbalance or balance "in actual play."

 

[Blue]

I honestly cannot say that I have seen anyone claim that "tougher encounters use more of all resources from all classes in even mounts" or that any encounter would "use all resources from all classes in even mounts" in any case.

They do all the freaking time. I can produce dozens if not hundreds of claims just from ENworld about how more difficult encounters balances out more encounters. They just haven't thought through what they are saying to realize that what they are asserting is that (a) tougher battles preserve the balance between the different resource models and (b) tougher battles use up an equal number of resources for all of the characters regardless of class or resource model.

So no, you won't see those words because if they worked out the repercussions of their statements, they likely would not say it.

Heck, if I had my druthers, the gistbof the balancing encounters eould be on much more reactive to what your party is than any generic party stuff. It would emphasize how specific challenge types chosen by the GM are more what creates imbalance or balance "in actual play."

Oooh, I'd love this. I'll back your idea right here.

Especially since resources are completely valid to use in scenes that don't involve combat, but usually happen at a rather different rate. (A combat scene could likely involve 0-3 spell slots per full caster once you're into Tier 2 or higher, while non-combat scenes usually use a lot less party resources.)

 

[ad_hoc]

I find the difficulty is largely dependent on what the DM does.

A lot of people's experience on the internet is far different from mine.

Someone once posted that their level 1 PCs wiped out their drow captors at the start of Out of the Abyss.

That is an extreme case but it stands that I think many DMs maneuver encounters to make it easier for the PCs.

A common remark I see on forums is if PCs die or TPKs happen the DM is at fault. In their games PC death is against the rules. The idea that the weaker monsters in a fight would finish off PCs is outrageous for these people. There are also the people who only have 1 encounter per long rest. I've seen many tables be 6-8 players too which really skews things. Yes, a party of 8 PCs can take down a single high CR monster. That doesn't mean the CR system doesn't work though. And of course there is also the idea that it is rude for a DM to have monsters attack the lower AC party members.

It's often hard to have discussions because what are good options in their games will be far different than what is good and bad in a game at my table.

 

[Nebulous]

I followed the given NPC tactics and the party only took one fireball AFAICR - from the priest who should have been a guard... It also helps we have 7 PCs, and they spread out. But it was still nearly a TPK.

R1 The party encountered 2 priests, one of whom recognised a PC, PCs rolled well on init. One priest starts praying to bring forth the elemental per adventure description, while the other is killed before he can cast. The guards started shooting.

R2 The 3rd priest & hounds approach (dash). 2nd priest retreats behind wicker giant. PCs continue attacks. A PC foolishly attacked the dormant fire elemental, bringing it forth.

R3 PCs kill 2nd priest, the 3rd priest gets in range and casts fireball on several PCs. Hell hounds start breathing. Fire elemental is attacking too. PCs are going down all over the place.

R4 PC Barbarian reaches & attacks the 3rd priest, who uses burning hands on him.

R5 PCs kill the 3rd priest. The hell hounds discorporate (not in the adventure, but then neither was the 3rd priest) . Fire elemental is killed. Remaining PCs grab their fallen and retreat, still under fire from the guards.

That's how I recall it, anyway. The group has 2 good healers (Cleric & Druid), and the Bear-barian and red dragonborn are fire resistant.

Some pics here - T1/M5/1491 DR session 3 Lvl 3 - Scarlet Moon Hall (XP 12+5=17)

Guy in red bottom left is Priest #3 being attacked by Barbarian. Priest #2 is the prone woman by the wicker giant, she must have been stunned or otherwise incapacitated I think (maybe by the Kensai?). And I see some shenanigans with a hell hound attacking the fire elemental, no doubt sorcery at work...

Ahh...this is the above ground encounter in Princes at the Fire temple. My guys totally skipped this and entered through the underground passages.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I honestly cannot say that I have seen anyone claim that "tougher encounters use more of all resources from all classes in even amounts"

You often here advice/anecdotes along the lines of:

"You don't need 6-8 encounters every day, just have 3-4 really hard ones, it's the same thing!"

Which, yeah, implies that an encounter twice as hard uses twice the hps, spell slots, &c, from each character, evenly. Which is, I suppose, not necessarily warranted, though it seems reasonable enough on the surface.

 

[5ekyu]

They do all the freaking time. I can produce dozens if not hundreds of claims just from ENworld about how more difficult encounters balances out more encounters. They just haven't thought through what they are saying to realize that what they are asserting is that (a) tougher battles preserve the balance between the different resource models and (b) tougher battles use up an equal number of resources for all of the characters regardless of class or resource model.

So no, you won't see those words because if they worked out the repercussions of their statements, they likely would not say it.



Oooh, I'd love this. I'll back your idea right here.

Especially since resources are completely valid to use in scenes that don't involve combat, but usually happen at a rather different rate. (A combat scene could likely involve 0-3 spell slots per full caster once you're into Tier 2 or higher, while non-combat scenes usually use a lot less party resources.)

That's kinda what I thought, "they" say something else but you read it as having to have also meant... what you think it must mean.

And in fact, we both know its just a lot more complicated than that.

For one thing, it doesnt have to affect everyone equally in terms of how much have I lost. If the fighters hot pummeled and the cleric is low on cures - odds are we are stopping or making major changes even if the mages are still 80% full.

Short resters, long resters, two encounters, four, eight - you can have them play balanced or imbalanced based on a lot of other factors than number of rests.

That said, as I noted above, I prefer to shift away from short rest and move to using HD to recover some spent abilities by class and recovering up to half your HD in a long rest. I think myself linking core mechanics to situational opportunities is not the best design.

 

[Lord of Nessus]

Fourth Edition had plenty of good ideas. It also had a lot of bad ideas, though; and for whatever reason, the designers only brought the bad ideas into 5E.

If I really wanted to make a good 6E, I would go back to 4E, and then build up the good ideas while abandoning the bad ideas. It would be an awful lot of work, though.

5e brought from 4e the Dragonborn,, 4e-style Tieflings, Eladrin, and Warlock, the Shadowfell (with the Raven Queen and Shadar-Kai), the Feywild (with mention of a few specifically 4e Fey lords), the Elemental Chaos, Primordials (albeit only one stat block so far), the Dawn Pantheon, and a few of the monsters such as the Archons (renamed Myrmidons) and Star Spawn. You don't like a single one of those? I mean, that's your right, but...

 

[Parmandur]

5e brought from 4e the Dragonborn,, 4e-style Tieflings, Eladrin, and Warlock, the Shadowfell (with the Raven Queen), the Feywild (with mention of a few Fey lords), the Elemental Chaos, Primordials (albeit only one stat block so far), the Dawn Pantheon, and a few of the monsters such as the Archons (renamed Myrmidons). You don't like a single one of those? I mean, that's your right, but...

IIRC, he's not a big fan of the Proficiency system and Hit Dice.

 

[Lanefan]

5e brought from 4e the Dragonborn,, 4e-style Tieflings, Eladrin, and Warlock, the Shadowfell (with the Raven Queen and Shadar-Kai), the Feywild (with mention of a few specifically 4e Fey lords), the Elemental Chaos, Primordials (albeit only one stat block so far), the Dawn Pantheon, and a few of the monsters such as the Archons (renamed Myrmidons) and Star Spawn. You don't like a single one of those? I mean, that's your right, but...

Of the ones of those I'm familiar with, I can't say I'm an outright supporter of any. I'm neutral to Eladrin, the Shadowfell, and the Elemental Chaos; I don't know anything about the Dawn Pantheon or Star Spawn; and actively dislike Dragonborn, Tieflings, the Warlock, and the Feywild.

The Raven Queen, Primordials, and Archons all predate 4e.