Pathfinder 1E D&D and Pathfinder tied for first place on ICv2 Q3 RPG sales list

PaizoCEO

First Post
Bearing all that in mind, I still think that this is bad news for WotC and the hobby itself. I like PF, but I don't think that it's as potent of a "gateway drug" for new players as 4E. It doesn't have the penetration to reach casual or new gamers that D&D does at this time. It exists almost exclusively to please their fans; which is great if you're a fan - but if you're not I could not imagine a more intimidating entry into a hobby than the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.

Add the Advanced Player's Guide to that mix, and it ends up feeling like a Trigonometry course.

I agree 100%. Which is why you will see us making a big push to create a better "gateway drug" for Pathfinder next year. Right now, the core rulebook and APG are very intimidating for new players. Heck, I've been playing for almost 30 years, and I am intimidated by the size of the rules. But have no fear, we will be fixing this issue for new players next year.

-Lisa
 

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jaerdaph

#UkraineStrong
FACT: I don't own a game store, so I'm probably not the target audience for this trend report.

FICTION: THEY R LYING MY EDITION IS WINNING TEH WAR!

B-)
 


Mirtek

Hero
Nobody denies that Paizo had a good quarter, what is questioned is the validity of an empirically un(der)supported claim.
And the "fact" that this claim is just made up by you. The 80/20 rule is surprisingly accurate in many greatly different enterprises.

You can get a very accurate picture by talking to just a few and a completly inaccurate picture despite having talked to a lot.
 

Mercurius

Legend
How popular can Pathfinder possibly become? Could it actually surpass 4E as the most popular (most played) RPG on the market? And more so, does it even want to?

To answer my own questions in order, I'm thinking 1) Not much more popular than it is now; 2) probably not; 3) The good folks at Paizo might want to but it might not serve Pathfinder if D&D death spirals.

D&D has the name brand and, as some have said, the name matters. If D&D advertises more broadly and sells the Red Box in Target, it is more likely to find new players than if Pathfinder does the same because no one outside of the RPG community has any idea what Pathfinder is. In other words, we shouldn't underestimate the power of the name brand "Dungeons & Dragons," and we need that name to have any chance of growing the hobby, partially because to everyone outside of the hobby, the two--RPGs and D&D--are synonymous, like Kleenex and tissue paper.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a relatively small number of people are responsible for a large percentage of RPG sales. So unless WotC (or Paizo) is somehow able to bring in a substantial number of new players, we're going to have the same core consumer base in ten years as we have now. And I think we shouldn't fool ourselves with just how small that consumer base is; sure, maybe a few million people world-wide play table-top RPGs at some point within any given year, but how many of them buy books? Maybe half or less? And how many of those people buy more than one or two books? A much smaller number, I would imagine. And how many buy books regularly, on a monthly basis? I would guess it is a five-figure number.

To put it another way, a very small percentage of the total gamer population (certainly less than 5%) purchases a large portion of the published product (I would guess at least 50%). In order for the RPG industry to maintain its current level and thrive, that population has to keep on buying; furthermore, that population has to replenish itself as it gradually dwindles through attrition, "retirement", and even death.

Given that the dominant gaming group is Generation X (born in the 60s and 70s), this core should remain relatively stable for the next ten, maybe twenty, years. Beyond that, who knows. But the next largest generation, "Gen Y" (born in the 80s and 90s) is not nearly as big, and the third, the Boomers (born in the 40s and 50s) isn't getting any younger.

To get back to my initial questions, my sense is that Paizo's best chance of continued success is that if A) D&D flourishes (and thus RPGs in general flourish), and B) enough fans of D&D become disenchanted or bored and find Pathfinder. Paizo can't do anything about the first, except cross their fingers and pray that someone takes charge of the floundering ship called 4E; but they can continue to create excellent products and also an easier gateway product (which it sounds like they are doing). But no matter how great a starter kit they put together, unless it has the words "dungeon" and "dragons" on the cover, it has very little chance in bringing in the numbers that are needed to grow the hobby.

But if Paizo veers from that course and starts focusing on dethroning 4E, I think they'll only hurt themselves in the process. After all, without D&D there would be no Pathfinder (which is a form of D&D, after all) -- this is not only true of the past but probably the future.

As an aside, here's a strange thought: What if Ryan Dancey is right and D&D death spirals to the point that WotC drops it and a growing company named Paizo buys it. Then Paizo releases a little game called "Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition," which is essentially Pathfinder 2E. OK, it probably won't happen but it could (right, Lisa? ;))
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
How popular can Pathfinder possibly become? Could it actually surpass 4E as the most popular (most played) RPG on the market? And more so, does it even want to?

To answer my own questions in order, I'm thinking 1) Not much more popular than it is now; 2) probably not; 3) The good folks at Paizo might want to but it might not serve Pathfinder if D&D death spirals.

D&D has the name brand and, as some have said, the name matters. If D&D advertises more broadly and sells the Red Box in Target, it is more likely to find new players than if Pathfinder does the same because no one outside of the RPG community has any idea what Pathfinder is. In other words, we shouldn't underestimate the power of the name brand "Dungeons & Dragons," and we need that name to have any chance of growing the hobby, partially because to everyone outside of the hobby, the two--RPGs and D&D--are synonymous, like Kleenex and tissue paper.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a relatively small number of people are responsible for a large percentage of RPG sales. So unless WotC (or Paizo) is somehow able to bring in a substantial number of new players, we're going to have the same core consumer base in ten years as we have now. And I think we shouldn't fool ourselves with just how small that consumer base is; sure, maybe a few million people world-wide play table-top RPGs at some point within any given year, but how many of them buy books? Maybe half or less? And how many of those people buy more than one or two books? A much smaller number, I would imagine. And how many buy books regularly, on a monthly basis? I would guess it is a five-figure number.

To put it another way, a very small percentage of the total gamer population (certainly less than 5%) purchases a large portion of the published product (I would guess at least 50%). In order for the RPG industry to maintain its current level and thrive, that population has to keep on buying; furthermore, that population has to replenish itself as it gradually dwindles through attrition, "retirement", and even death.

Given that the dominant gaming group is Generation X (born in the 60s and 70s), this core should remain relatively stable for the next ten, maybe twenty, years. Beyond that, who knows. But the next largest generation, "Gen Y" (born in the 80s and 90s) is not nearly as big, and the third, the Boomers (born in the 40s and 50s) isn't getting any younger.

To get back to my initial questions, my sense is that Paizo's best chance of continued success is that if A) D&D flourishes (and thus RPGs in general flourish), and B) enough fans of D&D become disenchanted or bored and find Pathfinder. Paizo can't do anything about the first, except cross their fingers and pray that someone takes charge of the floundering ship called 4E; but they can continue to create excellent products and also an easier gateway product (which it sounds like they are doing). But no matter how great a starter kit they put together, unless it has the words "dungeon" and "dragons" on the cover, it has very little chance in bringing in the numbers that are needed to grow the hobby.

But if Paizo veers from that course and starts focusing on dethroning 4E, I think they'll only hurt themselves in the process. After all, without D&D there would be no Pathfinder (which is a form of D&D, after all) -- this is not only true of the past but probably the future.

As an aside, here's a strange thought: What if Ryan Dancey is right and D&D death spirals to the point that WotC drops it and a growing company named Paizo buys it. Then Paizo releases a little game called "Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition," which is essentially Pathfinder 2E. OK, it probably won't happen but it could (right, Lisa? ;))

Then its in the best interests of Paizo fans that 'Pathfinder' the name and concept to get some name recognition - spots in movies, spots in commercials, in pop music, cartoons and other media. Would ever get the name recognition of D&D - definitely not. But there's some bad karma from the distant past that are in some people's minds when considering D&D the brand.

While this in opposition to your point of view, I say stop tagging along in D&D's coat tails expand into its own, have Pathfinder enter the public eye, so the game can grow, and not be reliant on D&D as the gateway drug.

Let's leave D&D behind and take a more proactive approach to concept recognition.

While this might not truly happen, I see it as way better and smarter than to have to rely on D&D's survival to survive itself. Doing otherwise is self defeating.

GP
 

Mercurius

Legend
Then its in the best interests of Paizo fans that 'Pathfinder' the name and concept to get some name recognition - spots in movies, spots in commercials, in pop music, cartoons and other media. Would ever get the name recognition of D&D - definitely not. But there's some bad karma from the distant past that are in some people's minds when considering D&D the brand.

While this in opposition to your point of view, I say stop tagging along in D&D's coat tails expand into its own, have Pathfinder enter the public eye, so the game can grow, and not be reliant on D&D as the gateway drug.

Let's leave D&D behind and take a more proactive approach to concept recognition.

While this might not truly happen, I see it as way better and smarter than to have to rely on D&D's survival to survive itself. Doing otherwise is self defeating.

GP

Maybe you are right? I don't know. At the least I will say that you approach you advocate is higher potential reward, but also higher risk. Yet even if Pathfinder is able to forge its own identity beyond the confines of the RPG ghetto, a healthy and vibrant D&D would be a net gain because it benefits the industry as a whole.
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
But if Paizo veers from that course and starts focusing on dethroning 4E, I think they'll only hurt themselves in the process. After all, without D&D there would be no Pathfinder (which is a form of D&D, after all) -- this is not only true of the past but probably the future.

As an aside, here's a strange thought: What if Ryan Dancey is right and D&D death spirals to the point that WotC drops it and a growing company named Paizo buys it. Then Paizo releases a little game called "Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition," which is essentially Pathfinder 2E. OK, it probably won't happen but it could (right, Lisa? ;))

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Don't worry, the PFRPG was never released with the intention of "dethroning" 4e. Paizo's RPG was designed to support the APs, modules, & Golarion. The collective whole is designed to (from what I've gleaned from Paizo posts):
A) Make the company as profitable & successful as possible
B) Please, retain, & grow their customers
C) Provide a vehicle for Paizo staff to create the adventures, campaigns, settings, & rules that they enjoy.

Now if, in the pursuit of goals A-C it just so happens that Pathfinder supplants D&D as the world's most popular RPG, that's some big time bonus points.

Final aside: I play Pathfinder, not D&D. If WotC dropped D&D tomorrow, Paizo bought the naming rights & suddenly said that Pathfinder was going to be re-branded D&D, I'd be pissed. Pathfinder as a brand, has far more value to me and my players than D&D at this point.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Maybe you are right? I don't know. At the least I will say that you approach you advocate is higher potential reward, but also higher risk. Yet even if Pathfinder is able to forge its own identity beyond the confines of the RPG ghetto, a healthy and vibrant D&D would be a net gain because it benefits the industry as a whole.

Creating Pathfinder was a risk, and it seems to have paid for itself a hundred fold. While forging new roads into name recognition might have some risk, I think the Paizo entrepreneurs are more than willing to put the risk in place, especially as they get more popular.

@ Azgulor... ditto.

GP
 

Azgulor

Adventurer
Maybe you are right? I don't know. At the least I will say that you approach you advocate is higher potential reward, but also higher risk. Yet even if Pathfinder is able to forge its own identity beyond the confines of the RPG ghetto, a healthy and vibrant D&D would be a net gain because it benefits the industry as a whole.

1st - I agree that a strong D&D game/brand is good for the hobby. However, I also submit that a strong Pathfinder brand is good for the hobby as well.

2nd - I'm NOT saying that you're taking the position I'm about to portray below, nor am I saying this reflects the feelings of either publisher towards each other. I'm just stuck with the following mental image & find it funny:

Foghorn Leghorn wearing a WotC t-shirt while the brainy little chick with glasses is wearing a Paizo t-shirt.

"I'm telling you son, you don't want to be the publisher of the world's most popular RPG. No sir. That's a lot of responsibility, ya hear? Look at me when I'm talking to you, son. Why it's not easy being the 800 lb. gorilla. Now move along son, you're bothering me..."
 

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