D&D and the rising pandemic

[Umbran]

The idea that they're created for profit and therefore suspect remains conspiritorial nonsense.

I agree. But, being clear about the fact that Moderna made a huge chunk of change off vaccines is important.

It is also important to note that they'd been working on the technology for a dozen years, generally at losses from the millions to tens or hundreds of millions, to have the technology available to do what they did for covid. If we consider the net income of the company over that dozen years together, it is still a win, but not nearly so stunning.

If they were not allowed to make a profit now, those hundreds of millions to billions in net losses wouldn't get repaid.

We don't expect any individual here to do their professional work for nothing, so why do we expect companies to do so?

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Again, the profit explanation is implausible for vaccines. They're not nearly as profitable as other drugs.

That's a pretty startling claim. Any evidence to back that up? I am not anti-vaccine... like at all! But to say there is no profit margin seems a bit off.

Profitability of Large Pharmaceutical Companies Compared With Other Large Public Companies

How do the profits of large pharmaceutical companies compare with those of other companies from the S&P 500 Index?In this cross-sectional study that compared the profits of 35 large pharmaceutical companies with those of 357 large, nonpharmaceutical ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Pharmaceutical companies reaping immoral profits from COVID vaccines yet -

Thanks to their patent monopolies for successful vaccines against the coronavirus, development of which was supported by $100 billion in public funding from taxpayers in the US, Germany, and other

www.oxfam.ca

Pfizer accused of pandemic profiteering as profits double

Drugmaker makes $37bn in vaccine sales and predicts bumper year ahead from Covid jabs and pill

www.theguardian.com

 

[Bedrockgames]

Be specific. Who is "they"?

It was Pfizer (I had intended to write it but posted too quickly, edited my post to make the change)

So now it is an unspecified "they" vs unspecified "number of other companies".

Again, appologies, that was Pfizer.

Need we mention that there aren't many companies who got emergency use authorization for their vaccines? They cannot "choose" to not make profit if they aren't legally allowed to offer their vaccine on the market.

Maybe I have this detail wrong, my memory of the reporting at the time was pfizer had decided to make profit and a number other companies didn't. But I wasn't saying that Pfizer was exclusively making profit. If that is incorrect, fair enough. But my point was less about praising the companies that didn't make profit, and more about being wary of the ones that did make profit (which given the industry we are talking about I think is a very reasonable stance to take). And again, I am not anti-vaccine. I just understand why people might be less than trusting of pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Mannahnin]

That's a pretty startling claim. Any evidence to back that up? I am not anti-vaccine... like at all! But to say there is no profit margin seems a bit off.

Again, my statement was "generally". The pandemic has changed the math for Covid vaccines specifically, because of the extreme unusual circumstance.

The fact that vaccines are less profitable than other drugs was so well known before the pandemic that it was functionally a truism. Governments had to step in to incentivize their production because too many manufacturers were quitting making them.

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.24.3.622

 

[Bedrockgames]

It is also important to note that they'd been working on the technology for a dozen years, generally at losses from the millions to tens or hundreds of millions, to have the technology available to do what they did for covid. If we consider the net income of the company over that dozen years together, it is still a win, but not nearly so stunning.

If they were not allowed to make a profit now, those hundreds of millions to billions in net losses wouldn't get repaid.

We don't expect any individual here to do their professional work for nothing, so why do we expect companies to do so?

My problem with this justification is pharmaceutical companies use it all the time to justify exorbitant price tags on life saving medication (and I think is very questionable how much of that is actually justified). And this isn't conspiratorial nonsense. This is a kind of criticism you hear on mainstream platforms like NPR. Just as an example there is a cure for Hepatitis C, which is amazing. I'm not anti-medication or anti-science. If we can cure an illness like that, that is a good thing. It is something we want to cure. But it like 80,000 dollars for the 12 week treatment (which was 95% effective). I think they have managed to find ways to bring that costs down, but I believe a lot of that is just shifting costs (pretty sure the manufacturer ultimately gets its 80,000). I get there is research cost, but I am very uncomfortable with the idea that we should not push back against companies charging these kinds of rates for curing serious diseases, and that we shouldn't be skeptical of a powerful industry that historically has profited off things like getting people to take unnecessary painkillers (and even lied about how safe and addictive those painkillers are). I've personally seen medications I've been on get suddenly jacked up in price by these kinds of companies and I don't think that is right. There was a congressional report issued a few years ago that addressed a lot of these issues with things like price hikes and a practice called price hopping (where they make minor tweaks to an old formula to get new patents so they can keep prices high). Again, not saying people shouldn't take medications, vaccines, etc. But think there are a ton of reasons to not trust these companies or take what they say at face value.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Again, my statement was "generally". The pandemic has changed the math for Covid vaccines specifically, because of the extreme unusual circumstance.

The fact that vaccines are less profitable than other drugs was so well known before the pandemic that it was functionally a truism. Governments had to step in to incentivize their production because too many manufacturers were quitting making them.

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.24.3.622

And I've heard this about vaccines in general but I don't know that it is true with the Covid Vaccines. It is possible I have not seeing stories to the contrary that are out there but most of the reporting I have encountered looks like this. It looks like they did pretty well, and while the demand is changing, and I'm sure eventually it will level out and be like other vaccines, it also seems like Pfizer at least is adapting by quadrupling prices to maintain profits when they shift away from selling directly to the government.

 

[Mannahnin]

And I've heard this about vaccines in general but I don't know that it is true with the Covid Vaccines. It is possible I have not seeing stories to the contrary that are out there but most of the reporting I have encountered looks like this. It looks like they did pretty well, and while the demand is changing, and I'm sure eventually it will level out and be like other vaccines, it also seems like Pfizer at least is adapting by quadrupling prices to maintain profits when they shift away from selling directly to the government.

The fact that the Covid vaccines are an aberration belies the premise that pharmaceutical producers are not to be trusted simply because of the profit motive. The profit motive has been much less of a factor for vaccines in the past, and it's not like Big Pharma created Covid.

Antivaxxers have been using the "but profits!" line about vaccines for many years despite its disconnection from reality prior to Covid.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The fact that the Covid vaccines are an aberration belies the premise that pharmaceutical producers are not to be trusted simply because of the profit motive. The profit motive has been much less of a factor for vaccines in the past, and it's not like Big Pharma created Covid.

I think if they are making large profits off this particular vaccine, being wary of their profit motive is fair (and it isn't like there aren't reasonable people out there accusing them of profiteering of a horrible pandemic). And I never said it was anything nefarious like them creating covid. I am just saying these are all companies with a lot of power, a lot of political clout, who have done harm to patients by jacking up prices for drugs, obfuscating the dangers of drugs, and encouraging doctors to overprescribe medication: because of the profit motive. I am not saying every crazy theory about pharmaceutical companies is true. I am saying people not trusting them fully makes a lot of sense when you consider all these details.

 

[Umbran]

But to say there is no profit margin seems a bit off.

I think this was unintentional, but let us be 100% clear - they didn't say "there is no profit margin".

Those are your words, not theirs. You then argue against your representation of his position, rather than what was actually said, creating a strawman.

This is exceedingly common on the internet, and tends to drive discussion to poles - you have effectively eradicated nuance from the other person's position by using absolute terms.

Please, folks, let's try harder to avoid that. Thanks.

 

[Zardnaar]

Aren't the vaccines comparatively cheap to even basic things like insulin in the USA? I don't recall the individual price of the vaccines. Gonna hopefully get my second booster in a week or two as it's been 6 months since I caught Covid.

No idea what Pharmac paid per unit.